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  1. #11
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    What an awful day for America.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #12
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    What an awful day for America.
    We were going to join the rest of the developed world when it came to health care eventually.

  3. #13
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Good news. It will most likely pass the Senate too. It's been since 1965 that major health reform has passed, a long time overdue.

    And even people that don't agree with universal coverage (well in this case, 96% coverage) or a public option, they should still be pleased that the insurance industry will no longer be able to deny them coverage because of pre-existing health problems, which was a ridiculous practice.
    That didn't really bother me. You know what bothers me? The possibility of 1) being forced to buy health insurance; 2) paying a fine I cannot afford; or 3) going to jail. That is a fucking disgrace.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #14
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That didn't really bother me. You know what bothers me? The possibility of 1) being forced to buy health insurance; 2) paying a fine I cannot afford; or 3) going to jail. That is a fucking disgrace.
    That's not how health mandates work. Look at Massachusetts, they've had one since 2006, and it's been a success so far. You're not going to jail.

  5. #15
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That didn't really bother me. You know what bothers me? The possibility of 1) being forced to buy health insurance; 2) paying a fine I cannot afford; or 3) going to jail. That is a fucking disgrace.
    This gets a lot of play. But really... you pay taxes, do you not? (yes) If you don't, do you get fined with penalties? (yes) Can you go to jail if you don't? (yes)

    If these penalties apply to you when it comes to paying for the military (among other government expenditures), why not when it comes to paying for health care? If the goal in question is to provide health care for everyone, the "free market" (which of course, isn't) won't do the job. It can't - because the goal of a private insurance industry isn't to provide care, it's to maintain profitability. Those two aims are diametrically opposed - care is increased when you take money in, and then pay it out for care. Profits increase when you take money in, and then *don't* pay it out for care.

    I understand that you prefer a free-market solution to most things. Don't get me wrong - I disagree with that philosophy, in general. But it does have some applications where I can see some merit. Health care is not one of those - people can live and prosper without the newest fancy toy, or a luxury car. People can't live with untreated diabetes (or MS, or cancer, or any one of who knows how many medical conditions). It's "pay up, or die" -- and that's a position that I find worthy for our nation to do its best to eliminate.

    Don't get me wrong - I agree that the "you're forced to buy health insurance" thing is stupid. The solution that I was in favor of was more along the lines of "medicare for everyone". But this is (hopefully) a step in the right direction -- with the end-goal to be taking the profit motive out of health care.
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  6. #16
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dooraven View Post
    Its really great that the house has passed the bill (very very narrowly unfortuantley) but passing this in the Senate is going to a lot harder.
    Yeah, it seems it's all about timing with the Senate. Lieberman is kind of a renegade - and by that I mean, he's the only Dem threatening to join the GOP filibuster who IS NOT from a red state. Of the other fence-sitting Dems, I believe Lincoln and Prior are up in 2010 (I don't think Nelson is) so passing this bill before Election season really kicks in is the key. And of course, consulting daily with Bob Byrd's team of doctors...

    It's definitely threading a needle, but at least, there's FINALLY some momentum.

  7. #17
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    This gets a lot of play. But really... you pay taxes, do you not? (yes) If you don't, do you get fined with penalties? (yes) Can you go to jail if you don't? (yes)
    I do pay taxes, but I think that the vast majority of them are wrong and that most of what the federal government does is wrong. It's purely a matter of convenience. I do support SOME of the things that those taxes go to, however. I choose not to have health insurance right now, because I don't get it through work and I can't afford a private plan. This is atrocious for me and millions of others.


    If these penalties apply to you when it comes to paying for the military (among other government expenditures), why not when it comes to paying for health care? If the goal in question is to provide health care for everyone, the "free market" (which of course, isn't) won't do the job. It can't - because the goal of a private insurance industry isn't to provide care, it's to maintain profitability. Those two aims are diametrically opposed - care is increased when you take money in, and then pay it out for care. Profits increase when you take money in, and then *don't* pay it out for care.
    I want there to be a military, although I want it reduced significantly. I do NOT want a government health care plan. I suppose I would qualify for it now, and I would have to sign up when it's mandated, but I should have a full-time job and benefits by then. If I don't, though, I will be extremely angry if my choices are government plan or compulsion to buy. It's a heinous imposition on my freedom of choice.


    I understand that you prefer a free-market solution to most things. Don't get me wrong - I disagree with that philosophy, in general. But it does have some applications where I can see some merit. Health care is not one of those - people can live and prosper without the newest fancy toy, or a luxury car. People can't live with untreated diabetes (or MS, or cancer, or any one of who knows how many medical conditions). It's "pay up, or die" -- and that's a position that I find worthy for our nation to do its best to eliminate.
    Then why have health care costs skyrocketed since the advent of Medicare and Medicaid? The government spends about 46 cents out of every dollar spent on health care in the United States. How would a major increase alleviate that situation?


    Don't get me wrong - I agree that the "you're forced to buy health insurance" thing is stupid. The solution that I was in favor of was more along the lines of "medicare for everyone". But this is (hopefully) a step in the right direction -- with the end-goal to be taking the profit motive out of health care.
    I don't WANT the profit motive taken out of health care, and I don't government health care. Have you ever seen government housing?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #18
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I don't WANT the profit motive taken out of health care
    Can you expand on this? What do you see as the value of holding on to this characteristic of the current American system, when numerous other countries have successfully done without it? What is the benefit of this characteristic?
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
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  9. #19
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    I think it's stupid to say America should be like other countries. The whole reason America was founded was to NOT be like other countries. If people wanted to live in other countries, they should have stayed there in the first place!
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  10. #20
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    By expanding Medicaid eligibility and creating a government-run insurance option.
    How? Read the bill and tell me what is going to happen. Don't regurgitate media soundbites.

    It's estimated to reduce federal deficits by about $104 billion over a decade by the CBO. The House bill is $1.2 trillion over 10 years.
    How were these estimates calculated?

    By cutting Medicare's projected spending and a tax surcharge of 5.4 percent on income over $500,000 in the case of individuals and $1 million for families.
    More details please.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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