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  1. #101
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    So ppl who get "dependent" will become more powerful than budget watchers?

    Thats what it comes down to?

    I always thought it was about cutting down the stupid American healthcare practice of blanket antibiotics usage, and instead becoming more frugal and careful about specific antibiotic usage and resistance. And that practice can't change unless someone big comes in to change it. But never mind, it just comes down to dependents vs. budget watchers. ok. uhhh
    Yes it does come down to those 2, you know why? Because the people who make the laws need to be voted into office. So they will do or say what they must to be voted in. So if you give everyone everything for free and free is misleading, it means stolen from the people who actually earned it, anyway when you give everyone something for free they want it forever and if you take it away you dont get reelected. Get it?

  2. #102
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    Yes it does come down to those 2, you know why? Because the people who make the laws need to be voted into office. So they will do or say what they must to be voted in. So if you give everyone everything for free and free is misleading, it means stolen from the people who actually earned it, anyway when you give everyone something for free they want it forever and if you take it away you dont get reelected. Get it?
    I don't think we're having a real discussion here. So why don't I take a shower and not think too deep about real medical policy issues here? Work hard, be dumb. Hooray for wheat and corn production.

  3. #103
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    I don't think we're having a real discussion here. So why don't I take a shower and not think too deep about real medical policy issues here? Work hard, be dumb. Hooray for wheat and corn production.
    I never look at things that way, that its not a real discussion, its a very real discussion. They voting on whether or not to rob me to pay for people who have made shitty choices in their lives. Doesn't get any more real than that.

  4. #104
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    I never look at things that way, that its not a real discussion, its a very real discussion. They voting on whether or not to rob me to pay for people who have made shitty choices in their lives. Doesn't get any more real than that.
    Give me California's federal taxes back. Kentucky, Mississipi, Kansas, North Dakota, etc... all these states take in more federal money than they put in. California is a loser in federalism.

    Each Californian pays 2,000 dollars every years in federal taxes to subsidize poorer states. The buck stops here?

    Either way, lets not discuss whats wrong with the wasteful practices of the medical industry at all. Because it hurts too much to think about that.

  5. #105
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    anyways. my bad for my azzholly tone.

    For me, it comes down to this.

    Lets say situation 1 exists...

    1) Scientist A finds a one shot cure for cancer. It costs 5 bucks to make. And u take it once, u are cured.
    2) Pharmaceutical companies will pay zillions to make sure that product never comes to market. I know this because I used to be an investment banker and seen many pharma deals that are trying to raise funding to go to market, and the market drives healthcare and pharma. No one wants to invest in something, unless you can get people to take it every day, and charge hundreds per dose. That makes your profits rise

    1) type of research/efficiency just works better under a system that isn't 100% private corps. I believe gov't can in this situation really improve health care and make it more efficient and better. 1) solutions is very very difficult to come about under our current system. So thats why I view how the argument is framed as being more important than just depedents vs. budget watchers. For me its framed in the context of how to improve healthcare and make it more efficient and better.

  6. #106
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    People will die without socialism? Damn I didnt know it was that serious.

    Standards decrease when you take money away from people and they have to live on less.


    Pssst You already live in a country with socialist practices.


    You really think people aren't dying earlier because they can't afford healthcare? Dying from preventable diseases that could've been caught with a routine checkup.

  7. #107
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by avolkiteshvara View Post
    Standards of living increase if people are living.
    At the higher end of the income scale, people also die from high standards of living (i.e. heart disease, cheap food, cheap gas, cheap electronic entertainment, etc.). For example, Japan has long had a higher life expectancy than we do, but their standard of living is arguably far less than ours, and was so even in the early nineties before their economy stagnated.

  8. #108
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    So ppl who get "dependent" will become more powerful than budget watchers?
    These groups aren't mutually exclusive. Your view is flawed based on that premise, alone.

    Thats what it comes down to? Wait, but what if the doctors become more powerful than the lawyers? lol
    ...

    I always thought it was about cutting down the stupid American healthcare practice of blanket antibiotics usage, which is very expensive and wasteful, and instead becoming more frugal and careful about specific antibiotic usage and resistance. And that practice can't change unless someone big comes in to change it because pharmaceutical companies currently run a policy of massive antibiotics usage in the US (because DUH, they manufacture antibiotics). But never mind, it just comes down to dependents vs. budget watchers. ok. uhhh
    So you think that replacing one bureaucracy with another will relieve this issue? Perhaps you should think this through some more.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #109
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    anyways. my bad for my azzholly tone.

    For me, it comes down to this.

    Lets say situation 1 exists...

    1) Scientist A finds a one shot cure for cancer. It costs 5 bucks to make. And u take it once, u are cured.
    2) Pharmaceutical companies will pay zillions to make sure that product never comes to market. I know this because I used to be an investment banker and seen many pharma deals that are trying to raise funding to go to market, and the market drives healthcare and pharma. No one wants to invest in something, unless you can get people to take it every day, and charge hundreds per dose. That makes your profits rise
    Are you saying that there's a conspiracy to hide a cure for cancer?

    1) type of research/efficiency just works better under a system that isn't 100% private corps. I believe gov't can in this situation really improve health care and make it more efficient and better. 1) solutions is very very difficult to come about under our current system. So thats why I view how the argument is framed as being more important than just depedents vs. budget watchers. For me its framed in the context of how to improve healthcare and make it more efficient and better.
    What are you talking about? Research isn't 100% private right now.

    What makes you think Congress' goal is to make health care more efficient? Congress has two primary goals, which often oppose each other:

    1. To appease campaign contributors/lobbyists
    2. To appease constituents

    Think about how this applies to the health care issue.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #110
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Yes - absolutely. I've got a friend with a chronic condition who *can't* quit her job - her health care and prescriptions are linked to her employment, and were she to get another job, she couldn't get coverage (preexisting condition). So it's stay with her current employer or be driven into permanent financial ruin - if not worse.

    Not cool.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's a horrible idea and we have the government to blame for this one. If Congress didn't make employer provided health insurance tax exempt, insurance would have never become tied to employment in the first place. And why did Congress do this? Not for the good of the country, no, they did it for votes. They didn't even bother to investigate the potential long term consequences of their policy decision.
    I think if government did away with the tax exemptions employers get with providing insurance and instead transfered that tax exemption to the individual, about half our problem would be solved.

    The other half would involve breaking up trusts and giving tax credits/aid/whatever to people with pre-existing conditions, or to insurance providers that accept people with preexisting conditions.

    It may not be perfect, but it might not end with bloody revolution.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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