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  1. #411
    Senior Member Feops's Avatar
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    Discrimination is only fine if it applies against white males.

    It's tiring really. As a white male I lost out on a ton of financial incentives offered to women and "minorities" (non-whites) to get through post-secondary education. It also hurt my chances to get a good job because the government offers incentives for equitable employment. If I had started a business I would have lost out on a great deal more.

    I understand why these incentives are in place. The government paints with a broad brush in an attempt to leverage disadvantaged segments of the population. But on a personal level it is frustrating to absorb a handicap based on race and gender while at the same time being raised in a society sensitive to racism and sexism.

  2. #412
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    yeah, the college thing was what really pissed me off. With a lot of these scholarships and grants, it doesn't even matter if you're poor, you just have to be born a certain way. So, someone who's from an upper middle class family of a non-euro ancestry gets grants while I've been working my way through college for four years and, at this rate, still have four years to go. I still haven't gotten one single "white privilege" check.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


  3. #413
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
    Is it wrong to assume that impoverished white people are on the same playing field with impoverished minorities?
    Yes.

    Are there more or less impoverished whites than impoverished minorities?
    Within the black population there are disportionately more impoverished people than within the white community, but there are still poor whites and there are still affluent blacks.



    Isn't exposure to words and numbers just as limited in a poor white household as a poor black household?
    Yes, but there are more opportunities for the poor white child to correct this than for the poor black child because the former is still white. There is more privilege intact for that one. Society more readily excuses poor behavior from whites than from blacks because of the privilege whites have being seen as individuals (thank broad representation for that one!).

    Is it white middle class america's fault that poor minority parents are just as incapable of facilitating the education of their children as poor white parents?
    I'm obviously not playing the blame game here. Please don't reduce anything that I've said to "guilt." It was implied in the way the question was worded. And if you feel any, it's your own conscience at play.

    Honestly it's no coincidence that schools in urban areas/schools in predominantly black neighborhoods are the least funded, but I don't expect for "white middle class America" to fix its own country's problems (how audacious of me!), even if I personally believe that everyone has social responsibility. WMCA just happens to be more capable of, and have more power to, change the state of things. That's all I'm saying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunward View Post
    a) All analogies are false if you hold them to a high enough standard. What I had hoped to illustrate (the nature of markets and demographics) didn't, from what I see, require a high enough standard for which it was inadequate. I believe it was reasonably appropriate.
    b) This is what an analogy does. It takes a complex construct and deconstructs it for separate analyses. I wished to address a simpler deconstruct than simply write a book on race relations.
    I don't agree with any of this, but I'm certain I won't be able to change your mind.

    In some places, a racial majority is just that - the majority of a population. I don't know why you so emphatically state that 'whites' are the largest racial group and simultaneously not the majority. This is not necessarily true at all. It certainly isn't true in the context of the world as a whole.
    What's your point?

    It seems like you're playing devil's advocate.


    Worldwide there is a phenomenon where 'white people' are falling behind, in terms of population. This does not concern me. If I'm unconcerned about the plight minorities face, it's not because I'm not in a "minority", it's because I'm apathetic. I don't necessarily care about the plight of the poor, either.
    Everyone is always so self-centric... until adversity finds him.


    Strawman.
    I hope you realize that I was mirroring your way of oversimiplifying yet another complex issue.

    Do you think governments should discriminate against people, in policy, by their ethnicity/nationality?
    What is your point?

    Where did I assume this? Please don't confuse apathy for ignorance.
    I'm well-acquainted with both, can definitely distinguish between the two, and thus won't be, and haven't been, confusing them. I also know from experience that they're usually born from the same egg. People are generally apathetic about something when they're ignorant of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaunward View Post
    The expression "normal privileged whites" makes me laugh.
    Why is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by rogue1 View Post
    I have never seen a calendar that posted "white month" on any page...or any channel what said "special" white channel. I have seen "Black" channels and movies.
    I think you're largely missing the point.

    That every month is a "white month" or every channel is a "white channel" is implicit. When imagining a character in a book (race not specified), turning on a favorite tv show, or even thinking of someone beautiful, for example, the image that automatically emerges is one of someone white. That's not necessarily a bad thing when you are white, but what does that mean when minorities do it? Wouldn't, if they're so removed from a sense of self externally, they be thus removed from self internally as well?

    In the US, white is "normal" while black/latino/asian, etc is "other." That sort of unconscious labeling results in marginalizing whole racial communities that make up a significant part of this country and distorted racial politics (or racial politics at all!).

    There are amazing black actors/actresses and producers...if they want more "Black" in society then they should make more.
    If only it were that easy.

    It is not because they don't have resources.
    It's almost precisely because we don't have resources. We also don't have the societal capital nor do we have the power.

    No, white "privilege" is not everywhere. I went in for a job and I was passed over because my skin was not dark enough. I called several times and I was finally told by the lady doing the hiring that my skin was not the right color. She had darker skin herself and she didn't feel the least bit bad telling me that. I have never thought twice about that sort of thing because my whole family is a different color. I am just sorry that anyone has to be "special," it creates so much more isolation. Prejudice is in every culture so lets not point fingers.
    That was purely anecdotal, and it doesn't hold up in the grand scheme of things. Overall, racial stereotypes and associations and just plain old racial prejudice hinders the progression of minorities (esp blacks) in America. Under the type of society we live, sporting natural hair or wearing a burka, for example, should be accepted as "normal" and not condemned or ridiculed, although it often is and makes these people vulnerable (i.e, "targets").

    Quote Originally Posted by Feops View Post
    Discrimination is only fine if it applies against white males.

    It's tiring really. As a white male I lost out on a ton of financial incentives offered to women and "minorities" (non-whites) to get through post-secondary education. It also hurt my chances to get a good job because the government offers incentives for equitable employment. If I had started a business I would have lost out on a great deal more.

    I understand why these incentives are in place. The government paints with a broad brush in an attempt to leverage disadvantaged segments of the population. But on a personal level it is frustrating to absorb a handicap based on race and gender while at the same time being raised in a society sensitive to racism and sexism.
    Woe is the white middle-class Christian man in America.

    :rolli:
    Last edited by neptunesnet; 01-30-2010 at 02:11 PM.

  4. #414
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Actually I think the perceived "advantage" of Jewish kids in the college system is not because of socioeconomic class but more because of the value of education in Jewish culture. There's a lot of "we'll get you into college no matter what the money!" now and in the past, and the children of these people will have a very good chance of getting into/scholarships from schools that the parents went to, because we all know that colleges love heritage students.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  5. #415
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marduk View Post
    yeah, the college thing was what really pissed me off. With a lot of these scholarships and grants, it doesn't even matter if you're poor, you just have to be born a certain way. So, someone who's from an upper middle class family of a non-euro ancestry gets grants while I've been working my way through college for four years and, at this rate, still have four years to go. I still haven't gotten one single "white privilege" check.
    Oh yeah.

    No one (organization or individual) should be prompted to create and sponsor scholarship programs catered specifically to people who've worked hard and studied diligently yet are still coming up short academically due to the way their country systemically disadvantages them, their education, and the future of their community. Never.

    :rolli:

  6. #416
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    That every month is a "white month" or every channel is a "white channel" is implicit. When imagining a character in a book (race not specified), turning on a favorite tv show, or even thinking of someone beautiful, for example, the image that automatically emerges is one of someone white. That's not necessarily a bad thing when you are white, but what does that mean when minorities do it? Wouldn't, if they're so removed from a sense of self externally, they be thus removed from self internally as well?
    It makes sense though; if yeu assume that 3/4 of yeur target audience is white, and yeu want them to associate themselves with the characters, then 3/4 of the cast should therefore be white as well.

    The alternative, is to have shows where yeu have 1 'white', 1 mexican, 1 black, 1 asian, 1's a girl, etc, just "token everything". This doesn't work, it just leads to people thinking it's a pretty sad and obvious attempt to try to pretend yeu care about minorities. *ESPECIALLY* if yeu make a big deal out of it, or have episodes or chapters revolving around their ethnic background, or colour-related problems. These generally backfire and serve no purpose.

    The other alternative, is the "heavy minority program" like a cast that's predominately black; this unfortunately just gets it labeled as "black entertainment" and half the black people don't care for it because of many factors, but primarily because these shows and such rarely ever seem to grasp that not every single person of a particular 'colour' has identical preferences in whot they watch... it's not a sitcom, or a detective story, or a romance or a sci-fi program, it's a BLACK ENTERTAINMENT SHOW. And that's all it'll ever really be seen as, with exceedingly rare exceptions.



    The best choice is to tailor yeur show to the audience; if yeu have a big enough audience, then yeu have some issues with that, especially with a smaller cast size to work with. Yeu can't try to forcibly fit in every single race/gender combonation in existance, and of course religious issues as well, with the token "jew episode". These do not work and mostly just look silly.

    If yeu have a large cast, it's not that hard to do to fit people in, toss in a few characters with diverse backgrounds, maybe mention them in passing, and give the character a REASON to be that race/religion/gender via good writing, rather than just "we need an asian guy so asians will watch the show... let's make him act just like a white guy but he'll be played by a japanese kid." or "make him so ridiculously stereotypically asian he'll piss off all the asian people watching it".

    If yeu're going to make a character that is *NOT* the same as the predominant target audience (and let's face it, the largest group of television addicts right now is white males, with white females secondary to that in north america and most of europe), is if they have a reason to be so. If yeu forcibly add one that isn't that way in, it won't work. If yeu try to pretend they're a different race or whotever but write them identically, then it also won't work.

    For a good example of the "token everything" that was actually done RIGHT... check babylon 5, specifically Susan Ivannova, the russian orthodox jewish woman. And unlike most attempts at this... they actually pulled it off, because they made her an interesting character, with many unique and interesting traits, and her russian jewishness was actually done with good effect because it made SENSE as her character and she fit in better that way. It wasn't stressed as "zomg JEW EPISODE!", though there was reference to it now and then, it didn't really seem forced.

    Now that being said, do we "need" a white channel? Probably not, but then again... keep in mind again, most people watching the shows are... white. As such, some probably get tired of the endless "token minority character" with no relevance to the plot otherwise. Bad writing's the biggest culprit more than anything... if there were more descent writers out there, we wouldn't have a problem.

    But we don't have that. Soooo yeah. An all white channel is pretty pointless. But to be blunt, an "all black channel" is pretty stupid as well... because honestly, yeu're assumming that all black people like the same thing, which's more or less just insulting I'm sure.

    I dunno, I just still think that, once yeu're at this stage where "being a minority is generally accepted" it's no longer a matter of actively self-segregating yeurself, or drawing attention to yeur plight... but rather just working yeur way into things and just acting NORMAL about it.

    Take a look at Morgan Freeman or Samuel L. Jackson, or Sean Connery. Each is a minority (though connery's white, it's kind of obvious he's not native to north america), and each are exceedingly good actors. And if yeu noticed, in every movie they've been in recently... they don't even mention the minority thing. They fit in by just being normal.

    That is the end goal here... to remove segregation and be considered 'normal'.

    As long as people keep making a big deal over it and trying to separate themselves as a separate group, they'll be treated... like a separate group. And then they'll wonder why.

    Once yeu're at the stage where yeu're not actively attacked or demonized, the trick then is to just blend in and stop calling attention to yeurself. The BET network does the exact opposite of this and is a direct conflict with the interests of the african american population, whether they know it or not.

    So yeah... why do people hate the idea of a "white channel" or "white history month"?

    Because it segregates the population by making the "whites" a separate entity from everyone else.

    And yet we're fine with doing that to all the other people who're trying to fit in... yeah yeu're just shooting yeurselves in the foot, please stop doing that.

    If we can't separate the whites from the blacks by putting the whites in their own separate place, let's separate them by putting the blacks in their own separate place, and call it a triumph of human rights!

    ...Am I the only one facepalming at this line of reasoning?

  7. #417
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neptunesnet View Post
    Oh yeah.

    No one (organization or individual) should be prompted to create and sponsor scholarship programs catered specifically to people who've worked hard and studied diligently yet are still coming up short academically due to the way their country systemically disadvantages them, their education, and the future of their community. Never.

    :rolli:
    Obviously these programs are needed. That's not even in question.

    The exploitation of minorities and women was so recent that things haven't had time to change yet. Even 50 years or however long it's been in the states, is not long enough. Neighbourhoods that were predominately black were slums, and due to that, even when they were "allowed" entry into better schools... they couldn't afford it. Which meant the next generation really wasn't honestly any better off than the last one. Even today, there's still going to be a noticible lag time in the changes that occur. These kinds of programs need to exist for those that fall behind...

    On the other hand... they're often abused too. In my graduating class from high school, there was an award grant given out to a black student... she was whiter than I am and I'm pretty shockingly pale. But she was within the 1/16th black rule so could still apply... problem is, she was also very well off and hardly impoverished in the slightest. She had no NEED for that grant money towards college...

    The problem isn't that these programs exist; that's just silly to pretend that's the case.

    The problem is moreso that people who have gotten past the lagtime required to turn themselves around, and come from a well off family, are still provided the benefits of someone who is in actual NEED of that help because of an impoverished situation.

    This means that money isn't available for other people who NEED that help, regardless of colour.

    As we transition slowly towards more and more of the once-slummed neighbourhoods being converted into better areas, or at least the segregation dying out over time, the need for race-based incentives will also die out, and in many cases, already have.

    The issue then becomes the removal of those crutches which're no longer required. Trying to take away a crutch now that the leg's good to walk on just causes hatred and spite from those that don't want to give up their crutch, believing they DESERVE it for being born the way they were.

    The end goal of these grants and such is not to give out money as a birthright, but to do exactly whot yeu said... to create and sponsor scholarship programs catered specifically to people who've worked hard and studied diligently yet are still coming up short academically due to the way their country systemically disadvantages them, their education, and the future of their community.

    That's not how it's viewed as though, and it's not how they're implimented and enforced. It hurts to watch people I know go through school, one being a wealthy slacker with no aspirations and subpar marks, the other being a hard worker and diligent in their studies but comes from a poor family... and then the girl who obviously didn't deserve it... gets three times the grant money for a college she didn't earn the right to go to, while the guy who worked his butt off gets a pittance in return.

    That's how the situation is often twisted around because we're in the middle of equalizing rights... the "impoverished minorities" aren't really nearly as impoverished as they once were, but they're still given the benefits under the assumption that they still are.

    Some situations and locations, this's still the case, and I fully endorse and recommend helping people that need help out... if yeu've been given a hard time yeur whole life because yeu're black and need help to crawl out of the pit yeu're in, then YES, PLEASE give that person the help they need!

    But if yeu're just taking freebies simply because yeu can... and restricting them from someone who actually needs them? Yeu've just ruined the whole point of why that grant was instituted in the first place, and I have no respect left for yeu, not that I likely ever did in the first place if that's how yeu act.

    100 years from now we'll probably have something pretty close to an equilibrium of rights, and the lagging aspects of the culture will finally die off as all those who had lived during the previous age of oppression shall be gone... and then we can all be free equally.

    Assuming that those who have relied on a crutch for the last 100 years are willing to give it up and run now that they're given the opportunity to do so.





    I know I sound harsh in these posts, but I'd like to make it clear, I have nothing against helping those who need it. I have serious MAJOR issues with people abusing the institutions put in place to help people less fortunate than them. And I abhor the encouragement that we give these failures of life to do so. If they were white, they'd be just as bad, but the white people mostly don't have the opportunity to abuse this crap, but we know full well, that given that same opportunity, they would.

    This isn't a matter about race really, it's just about people being asshats in general. It's just minorities currently have the tools available to them to show off their asshatteryness more clearly is all.

  8. #418
    Gotta catch you all! Blackmail!'s Avatar
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    You Americans are really obsessed with race, whether in one way or another.
    "A man who only drinks water has a secret to hide from his fellow-men" -Baudelaire

    7w8 SCUxI

  9. #419
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackmail! View Post
    You Americans are really obsessed with race, whether in one way or another.
    Your French laughter now only numbs us further.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  10. #420
    man-made neptunesnet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    ...Am I the only one facepalming at this line of reasoning?
    I was merely pointing out why we have desginated black months, celebrations, etc. I never said I was an advocate for them - although I'd like to think everyone considers the leaders of the Civil Rights' movement great men and women who deserve to be revered, let alone receive their own day. In my post I was talking about the portrayal of black people in the media, specifically in television. We're relegated to a few one-dimensional characters in TV-land and are rarely protagonists of mainstream shows (i.e, the ones not titled "black film" or "black show"). Producers put labels on universal themes like envy, friendship, love in their film, magazines, and shows. For instance, there is "black love" and "[insert another arbitrary race here] love" and then there is just "love," which is clearly white since there is no racial disclaimer included and since of course whites and minorities love differently :rolli:.

    I personally don't support BET or black representatives like Al Sharpton and Jesse James. I respect these men and what they've done in the Great Movement, but they certainly don't represent me and my ideas and opinions. I believe they're only still around because American media and society continues to perpetuate stereotypes and limited views of black people - indeed, we Americans resist "blackness" and whatever (we think) that means - and these men feel like they can speak against it with what they think to be the opinion of the black majority. Contrariwise, their role as the collective, or rather monolithic, black voice is ironic in nature as it is regressive rather than progressive.

    Further, the shows that try to showcase diversity yet do it perfunctorily and bleed over into token country *coughGleecough* are only pathetic because of the lack of character development. No one likes flat, one-dimensional characters, esp ones that are little too on the brown side of things . That type of lazy writing isn't only bad for the quality of the show but also reinforces the idea that white characters, and thus white people, are more round characteristically, interesting, "normal," and essentially more relatable. Tokenism is the sort of "liberal" modern-day racism that repulses me about as much as blatant racism. A white viewer shouldn't have any problem relating to a black protagonist considering many black viewers have no problem relating to white protagonists all the time. Thus, the beginning of the your post about the target audience suiting the viewer just doesn't fit to me.

    I suppose I agree with you (albeit conditionally).



    *I hope this was a little coherent. I'm so
    Last edited by neptunesnet; 01-31-2010 at 11:45 PM.

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