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  1. #401
    psicobolche tcda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Well if you're talking about state universities, then yes, the middle class has completely taken over them. I was talking about upscale private universities, which are primarily filled with rich people. This is comparing the University of Minnesota to Yale, see.
    ok...I'm not in the US so wouldn't know. I will take your word for it. Overall though it would still seem that the middle class has a much better hope of getting a university education than the poor though.
    "Of course we spent our money in the good times. That's what you're supposed to do in good times! You can't save money in the good times. Then they wouldn't be good times, they'd be 'preparation for the bad times' times."

    "Every country in the world owes money. Everyone. So heere's what I dont get: who do they all owe it to, and why don't we just kill the bastard and relax?"

    -Tommy Tiernan, Irish comedian.

  2. #402
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    I see your point, but I think it's not quite true. The universities are much more filled up witht hte middle classes than the poor. I gave some of the reasons why a few posts back.

    I think the middle classes, rather than resenting those poorerthan them and ethnic minorities, need to realize who is really screwing them over, and start actually thinking about constructive alliances for change with the working class and poor (in fact most "middle class" people are actually working class but don't know it). Sadly though misanthropy and self-pity seem to be more "fun" to a lot of them.
    It was called the "New Deal Coalition".

  3. #403
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    Only Klan pride should be allowed for whitey.

  4. #404
    Nickle Iron Silicone Charmed Justice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    If yeu're a black/native woman yeu're guaranteed at least 3+ grants worth thousands of dollars no matter which field yeu go to study for. If yeu're a white male, yeu get absolutely nothing unless yeu are the pinnacle of perfection in yeur grades.
    Where is this place? I wish I had known that.


    Further, in order to get any aid at all, you've got to be able to get into school in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    There is an advantage to being a poor minority in terms of post secondary education... yeu have to pay for virtually none of yeur schooling, since it's all covered for yeu for the most part if yeu bother to look for the benefits available.
    Where? And what is this advantage in terms of? There is a slight advantage to being a poor "black" or "Hispanic" in terms of being a recipient of financial aid if you happen to be attending one of the most elite universities in the United States, which the vast majority are not. Even still, my mother is an Ivy League grad who went on welfare for 2-years in order to afford her doctorate in the 70's and 80's, when affirmative action was at its most popular. On top of that, her father was military for almost 20 years at the time. She graduated when I was 4 and paid loans until I was 15. Getting some aid and/or being black and female doesn't mean you get a "free ride"; that's a pretty gross exaggeration.


    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    If yeu're a middle class white male, yeu have the single hardest time affording college/university due to the lack of bursaries and grants out there, but don't have enough money on yeur own to afford it either unless yeur parents cover it, which's just "assumed" to happen.
    Middle class white men have the hardest time affording college? I never heard that. Where can I find that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Noticed that when I was going through the list of grants and things, how almost all of them were dependent upon being 'born' rather than having anything to do with yeur schoolwork, which really annoyed me to see that. At whot point can we just say "alright, we are seriously being racist bastages now".
    Don't know where you live, but in the US, Federal Grants are not race based, and most have plenty to do with your area of study and your GPA(merit). The need based grants like the Pell and the Supplemental Opportunity are awarded based upon your income status, and I think they're also giving them to students who had a parent die on 9/11 or as military in the resulting war. Even still, the grants don't remotely give most students a full ride. Something like 60% of all financial aid is merit based(grades, area of study, test scores, etc..), and I think need based grants only cover something like 30% of the student's actual needs.

    I went on my college's website just to pick through some of the institutional and state grants that were offered because it's been awhile since I've looked into this topic, and you know, things do change. Maybe they are just handing grants out to every black woman who walks in the door; at which point, it's time for me to sign off of here and get started on my master's to.day! In any case, all but one of the grants offered is merit+need based, nothing about race at all. I'm living in the wrong place!
    There is a thinking stuff from which all things are made, and which, in its original state, permeates, penetrates, and fills the interspaces of the universe.

  5. #405
    Junior Member rogue1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexis View Post
    It was also pisses me off when a black person gets brought up in the news for showing racist towards whites or sometimes even mexicans and its called "reverse-racism"....Uh...its just racism idiots.

    But I understand your point of view on this. Im pretty much the same way. If all these people where really into equality they wouldnt bitch about us having our own month or holiday...or TV channel.
    I agree with this for the most part. I believe it isolates someone more by creating "special" days, holidays, colleges...

    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    That's the thing, though.

    Every month is white month. Every channel is the white channel. White privilege is everywhere in our culture.

    White people rarely notice it, because they've never been without it.
    I have never seen a calendar that posted "white month" on any page...or any channel what said "special" white channel. I have seen "Black" channels and movies. There are amazing black actors/actresses and producers...if they want more "Black" in society then they should make more. (I personally think that there should be a lot more Will Smith in the world ) It is not because they don't have resources. Putting a "special" on anyone creates separation.
    No, white "privilege" is not everywhere. I went in for a job and I was passed over because my skin was not dark enough. I called several times and I was finally told by the lady doing the hiring that my skin was not the right color. She had darker skin herself and she didn't feel the least bit bad telling me that. I have never thought twice about that sort of thing because my whole family is a different color. I am just sorry that anyone has to be "special," it creates so much more isolation. Prejudice is in every culture so lets not point fingers.

  6. #406
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Lol, "white channel".. Almost everything in western media is slightly white focused. Getting better though. There are many leading men and women who are black, for example.. compared to the past. Latino.. not so much? Need to think about that. Asian men are still bundled in the lecherous Long Duck Dong or Karate expert stereotype. Asian women are angry bitches ala Lucy Liu. Not really an equality, but a niche.

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Your reasoning is still abstract.

    How about we start with the fact that the majority of white people in the US get screwed over by the system as we can see by 30 years of stagnated wages and attacks onw orking conditions and public services, indebtedness, civil liberties, living standards, etc., and that therefore whites have an objective interest in unity with black stuggles against the status quo, rarher than in uniting with the ruling class and perpetuating the system that screws them over.

    that would seem a more constructive approach to poltiics than dealign with abstract terms like "majority" and "minority". I mean, it depends what definitioons we use. The workers are also a "majority", so I could just turn your own abstract formula quoted above, right back at you.
    I've stated in this thread that I believe people should stop looking at this in terms of colour. I've stated in this thread I identify more with class than race.

    Is this basically what you're talking about?

  8. #408
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    Don't know where you live, but in the US, Federal Grants are not race based, and most have plenty to do with your area of study and your GPA(merit). The need based grants like the Pell and the Supplemental Opportunity are awarded based upon your income status, and I think they're also giving them to students who had a parent die on 9/11 or as military in the resulting war. Even still, the grants don't remotely give most students a full ride. Something like 60% of all financial aid is merit based(grades, area of study, test scores, etc..), and I think need based grants only cover something like 30% of the student's actual needs.

    I went on my college's website just to pick through some of the institutional and state grants that were offered because it's been awhile since I've looked into this topic, and you know, things do change. Maybe they are just handing grants out to every black woman who walks in the door; at which point, it's time for me to sign off of here and get started on my master's to.day! In any case, all but one of the grants offered is merit+need based, nothing about race at all. I'm living in the wrong place!
    It's been a while since I applied for any grants or scholarships, but I remember, distinctly, several scholarships at the school I attended were limited by race. Basically, if you identified yourself as "white" on your FAFSA, you could not apply. I don't recall anything like that for grants.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #409
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcda View Post
    Surely this is judged by income and not ehtnicity? It was in my case, I got full loan and bursary, nobody asked my ethnicity, just income. Do you have any evidenmce at all that they grant bursaries and loans based on ethnicity? That just sounds like a conspiracy theory that the "white nationalists" would put around.
    Not really, I mean like in this area here, if yeu go through the bursaries and grants and such, yeu can get several thousand dollars a year for being female taking courses in a field which doesn't have many (like a female taking a degree in plumbing would get about $3,000/yr just because she's female).

    Then add in bursaries for having at least 1/64th of yeur blood being native american.

    Another bursary for being at least 1/16th black.

    Before yeu've even gone to government loans, yeu've gotten 1/2 yeur tuition paid for that YEU DON'T HAVE TO PAY BACK, just for the first three above there.

    These are PRIVATE benefits though, not government run ones. There's benfits and such available from different funds set up by rich people who feel there's a need to support certain minority groups. All yeu have to do usually is apply.

    Of course, once yeu're into the government's loan process, yeu also get a second benefit there as well; if yeu're a visible minority, handicapped in any way regardless of visibility of such or not, female (not a minority since technically females are 52% of the population so a majority but whotever), or in the lower class, yeu get further benefits, regardless of how much is paid for yeu by family.

    Considering I just went through all the forms for this literally 5 months or so ago, and still have some of them on me, I can assure yeu that yes, yeu do get benefits for such.

    If I had've been born a white male to a middle class family, I'd be allowed very, very little in the way of benefits and my loans would be immense, and often wouldn't even be able to apply for them. Even if my parents paid absolutely nothing to help out.

    If I had've been born a female black/native american, even if not visably so, but within the guidelines required, I would've been able to go to school essentially for free almost, paying maybe 20% of my tuition tops in loans, the rest would be non-repayable bursaries and grants.



    So yes, there is actually some noticible differences. The stuff's out there yeu just have to be part of a minority which has something "owed" to them, or in a field where there's not enough of a particular minority and they're trying to pretend they're equal opportunity by being NOT equal.

    Even today, at school, there was an advertisement up on one of the boards for work... longtail studios is currently hiring... women 24-32 for their 3d graphics department. Why? Probably because they don't have enough and are scared they're going to be sued for not being equal opportunity employment.

    Yes, there most definitely is a bit of a slant in the culture these days benefiting people for simply being born. There always was and there always will be. Before it was racist in favour of white males, now it's in favour of female minorities, but we'll never be rid of it, because we overcompensate endlessly.

    "Too many black kids grow up in poor neighbourhoods... this sucks! Let's make sure they have the same opportunities as white kids!"

    This's a great idea! Totally fair! I see nothing wrong with this. The problem comes in when yeu have 3-4 options presented on HOW to help them... any 2 would make it a level playing field again. Instead they go with all 4 to 'err on the side of caution', and then it just slants the other way.

    If yeu want a REALLY good example? My driving insurance when I hit 16 was $0. That's right. $0.00.

    Were I male, it would've been about $700.

    That was the point at which I realized just how screwed up things really were, because although, yeah, some guys will be idiots when driving, I also knew alot of girls who were retarded behind the wheel too, talking on the cell phone with one hand, makeup with the other, and steering with one elbow... right. But then there were guys who were perfectly 'normal' people who drove with the understanding it was dangerous, and their insurance rates were insane.

    That's actually been changed since then, since that was quite some time ago... it was ruled to be unfair. So was the higher rates on teens and lower on the elderly, when it was shown their accident rates were pretty much the same but one was being charged about 4X as much as the other.

    So there is change being slowly brought about to fix things, but it takes awhile to level things out, since we go overboard and heavily overcompensate one way, then overcompensate for that the other way, back and forth getting it wrong every time. Eventually we do get it right, but it takes quite a few tries.

    For the moment though, we're definitely not in equilibrium by any means.

  10. #410
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    uh......ditto.
    “Some people will tell you that slow is good – but I’m here to tell you that fast is better. I’ve always believed this, in spite of the trouble it’s caused me. Being shot out of a cannon will always be better than being squeezed out of a tube. That is why God made fast motorcycles, Bubba…”


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