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  1. #81
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Yeah, Blair would probably be considered neoliberal by US standards, which I guess really isn't all that far off from neoconservatism, but with less whiplash (neoliberals aren't often former communists, nor are they current Rightists).

    In US terms, I generally associate paleocons with William F. Buckley or Pat Buchanan; neocons with Irving and William Kristol or David Horowitz; and neoliberalism with Al From and Bill Clinton (does that fit with Blair?). Problem is that the only backlash against neoliberalism on the Left is from the New Left, or its heirs. Yeah, there are a handful of people who advocate a liberal return to community - Etzioni, Jim Wallis (who comes at it from a Christian perspective), Thomas Frank, Robert Putnam, Amy Sullivan, Michael Kazin (he writes a lot of Populist history) etc... but they are few and far between.

    Did Blair change UK politics in the same (unfortunate) way Clinton did here, or is he considered a blip on the radar of Labour politics?
    I wouldn't call Buckley a paleo. He is a traditional, anti-communist right-winger. Paleocons dislike government paternalism, even when it is arguing against communism. Also, Buckley warned against the influence of anti-Semitism and the so-called "Lost Cause of the Confederacy," which pop up in some of the more radical populist elements in paleoconservatism.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #82
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I wouldn't call Buckley a paleo. He is a traditional, anti-communist right-winger. Paleocons dislike government paternalism, even when it is arguing against communism. Also, Buckley warned against the influence of anti-Semitism and the so-called "Lost Cause of the Confederacy," which pop up in some of the more radical populist elements in paleoconservatism.
    If we live in a world where Christopher Lasch is considered a paleocon and Bill Buckley isn't, my entire way of viewing political ideology has been turned upside down.

    I don't think anti-Semitism is any more a hallmark of paleoconservatism than racism would be of Populism. A belief system can't be held responsible for the twisted ways it's applied by some of its practitioners.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    If we live in a world where Christopher Lasch is considered a paleocon and Bill Buckley isn't, my entire way of viewing political ideology has been turned upside down.
    Neoconservatism and paleoconservatism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    I don't think anti-Semitism is any more a hallmark of paleoconservatism than racism would be of Populism. A belief system can't be held responsible for the twisted ways it's applied by some of its practitioners.
    Tell that to the anti-libertarian obsessives on this site.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #84
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Tell that to the anti-libertarian obsessives on this site.
    As one of the leading anti-libertarian obsessives on this site, I would like to say that it's the ideology itself, and not exclusively the excesses of some of its followers, that I find abhorrent. The "crazies" just add pizzazz.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    As one of the leading anti-libertarian obsessives on this site, I would like to say that it's the ideology itself, and not exclusively the excesses of some of its followers, that I find abhorrent. The "crazies" just add pizzazz.

    So libertarianism is more objectionable than neoconservatism or paleoconservatism? That sounds like self-incriminating testimony to me.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #86
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Then I guess I've incriminated myself. Yeah, I tend to find libertarianism to be the most objectionable strand of conservatism, although neoconservatism is a pretty close second. In fairness, I'm guessing you'd think my brand of liberalism is the most dangerous kind.

  7. #87

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    Oh Blair transformed it alright, the british public are now voting against the party in power and for whoever is opposition now, its like the changing of the guard at the palace though because there is a perfect consensus between the governing elites as a single political class and most people know it.

    Back in 1997 Blair's party made a big deal out of conservatives crossing the commons floor to join the labour benches and Blair attempted to change the party colours to purple from red, it wasnt simply about divesting the left of its former principles and ideology but about making it clear that at last the "left" were prepared to be a partner in the political class and never again threaten any of its status, revenues and privileges. Not even talking about it.

    There's a major scandal going on at the moment about expenses bills and large scale fraud, including playing the property market with tax payers money and bannana republic style fiscal policies, straight up transfers of public money to swiss accounts. Its been the death nell of public confidence.

    So now people are inclined to vote for people who they hope wont sack them from the few remaining public jobs or who will represent a law and order line or anti-immigration line or some of the other reactionary currents.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Then I guess I've incriminated myself. Yeah, I tend to find libertarianism to be the most objectionable strand of conservatism, although neoconservatism is a pretty close second. In fairness, I'm guessing you'd think my brand of liberalism is the most dangerous kind.

    Libertarianism is not a subset of conservatism.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #89
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Oh Blair transformed it alright, the british public are now voting against the party in power and for whoever is opposition now, its like the changing of the guard at the palace though because there is a perfect consensus between the governing elites as a single political class and most people know it.

    Back in 1997 Blair's party made a big deal out of conservatives crossing the commons floor to join the labour benches and Blair attempted to change the party colours to purple from red, it wasnt simply about divesting the left of its former principles and ideology but about making it clear that at last the "left" were prepared to be a partner in the political class and never again threaten any of its status, revenues and privileges. Not even talking about it.

    There's a major scandal going on at the moment about expenses bills and large scale fraud, including playing the property market with tax payers money and bannana republic style fiscal policies, straight up transfers of public money to swiss accounts. Its been the death nell of public confidence.

    So now people are inclined to vote for people who they hope wont sack them from the few remaining public jobs or who will represent a law and order line or anti-immigration line or some of the other reactionary currents.
    That's a shame. What about the rest of the (elected) Labour Party? Did they follow Blair into the "New Labour" movement, or are they, by and large, still operating under pre-Blair principles? Has Brown done anything to change the Party's reputation?

  10. #90
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Libertarianism is not a subset of conservatism.
    How did I know I was going to get that? I know... I know... I was trying to sneak in a bit of short-hand. Can you blame me? Everyone thinks their own personal ideology falls outside of the traditional Left - Right spectrum.

    If Left is defined by a willingness to apply government solutions to social or economic problems, and Right is defined by a basic skepticism of government intervention, then libertarianism is on the far right. "Conservatism" is a common, catch-all phrase generally used (although certainly not always accurately) as another word for "Right." There were no greater implications to my "strand of conservatism" comment.

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