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  1. #41
    Senior Member Ruthie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billy View Post
    There is less social pressure for men to stick in a relationship simply because its the manly thing to do to self sacrifice for the family now that women have equal rights? Would be kind of retarded for men to remain traditional if women werent going to as well.
    Of course. I think both men and women should be committed to a marriage, and I suppose that means I think both should "remain traditional.*" I just take exception to the idea that the reason the divorce rate is higher now than it used to be is because women can get out of abusive situations. Obviously women should be able to leave any dangerous situation, but that does not account for the 50% divorce rate. As for the "freedom" and "options" arguments, I am a traditionalist in the way that I believe when you choose to marry someone, you do give up other options and freedoms. That's the point of a lifetime commitment.

    *"Remaining traditional" in my mind has absolutely nothing to do with gender roles. Marriages should be 100% equal in every way. I use the term only to describe a marriage in which both partners are faithful and committed to making the marriage work, even if one of both of them change and/or regret their decision to marry their partner.

  2. #42
    Crazy Diamond Billy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    Of course. I think both men and women should be committed to a marriage, and I suppose that means I think both should "remain traditional.*" I just take exception to the idea that the reason the divorce rate is higher now than it used to be is because women can get out of abusive situations. Obviously women should be able to leave any dangerous situation, but that does not account for the 50% divorce rate. As for the "freedom" and "options" arguments, I am a traditionalist in the way that I believe when you choose to marry someone, you do give up other options and freedoms. That's the point of a lifetime commitment.

    *"Remaining traditional" in my mind has absolutely nothing to do with gender roles. Marriages should be 100% equal in every way. I use the term only to describe a marriage in which both partners are faithful and committed to making the marriage work, even if one of both of them change and/or regret their decision to marry their partner.
    Except in order for a marriage to be traditional the woman doesn't get 100% Equality. Because traditional marriages stem from an era when women had very few rights, and this was not only because of social institutions, but because of religious ones as well.

    You aren't talking about traditional marriage when you say equality. Equality is not the tradition.

  3. #43
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    In today's society there's no real incentive to get married and/or have children. Up until and for many years after the advent of the Industrial revolution, people cranked out lots of kids to help with farming and to send to factories to earn income for the family.

    Now the kids will only cost you, the partner can leave at will and take most of your stuff.

    I just like dating someone for a while, then onto the next. Got a nice sports car, got a nice home, got nice toys...mine! all mine!

  4. #44
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Aside from the fact that I think basing any kind of legislation upon social conservatism is a total joke, I will comment on one thing here....

    The divorce rate. Anybody think the reason it's gone up is simply the fact that it's more socially acceptable to end a marriage now? I think the stuff about wives escaping abuse is only playing a small part here; the real reason is just changes in social attitudes.

    Perhaps we're finally recognizing that life-long monogamy is just not realistic for most humans, from a biological standpoint, and that government doesn't really need to be involved in it either way.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #45
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    Think I read somewhere that monogomy and marriage concepts only came along when it became advantageous to transfer property rights to offspring.

  6. #46
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Premise of social conservatism - "I'm used to a certain way of going about things. When people do things differently, it really bothers me, regardless of the results. If people just did things the same way, everyone would be happier. People who say that the traditional way of doing things hurts them either are delusional, immoral, or made bad choices they don't want to suffer the consequences of. If we don't keep doing things the same way, then society will collapse because nothing will unite us anymore."

  7. #47
    A Benign Tumor PoprocksAndCoke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Premise of social conservatism - "I'm used to a certain way of going about things. When people do things differently, it really bothers me, regardless of the results. If people just did things the same way, everyone would be happier. People who say that the traditional way of doing things hurts them either are delusional, immoral, or made bad choices they don't want to suffer the consequences of. If we don't keep doing things the same way, then society will collapse because nothing will unite us anymore."
    Fuck the conservatives.
    "In order for the light to shine so brightly, the darkness must be present." -Francis Bacon

    "No matter how dark the moment, love and hope are always possible." -George Chakiris

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by sLiPpY View Post
    Think I read somewhere that monogomy and marriage concepts only came along when it became advantageous to transfer property rights to offspring.
    Very true! Women had to only sleep with one man and one only because it would have been impossible to figure out who fathered who.

    Children are expensive. It was easier *still is but not as hard as before* to raise a child with two parents then only one. Having these traditional conservative values WAS the moral thing to do in the past in order to have a functional society.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Aside from the fact that I think basing any kind of legislation upon social conservatism is a total joke,
    Agreed. If society naturally stopped having these values then it means that society do not gain anything out of them anymore. It's worthless now.

  9. #49
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruthie View Post
    This argument that the rise in divorce rates are just evidence of more options and freedoms for women rings hollow to me - more a reflexive feminist argument than an argument grounded in reality. If women in abusive marriages accounted for all (or most) divorces, there's no way the divorce rate would be hovering around 50%. No one in today's society would make an argument that abuse is not legitimate grounds for divorce. Hence the suggested reform to do away with no fault divorces. Abuse is definitely a fault.

    But divorce isn't a one-way street. As a woman, I would like to believe that when I get married, it's permanent - not until my husband decides he wants more out of life or some cliche like "falling out of love." Some level of divorce is inevitable in society. But I also don't think it helps anyone for marriage to become a step above dating - completely conditional on the whims of either partner.
    Be careful when you choose your marraige partner. And good luck.

  10. #50
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Social conservatism, by definition, will eventually be on the losing side of every battle it has as society progresses. Like a stubborn mule, or in this case, an elephant, it drags its feet the whole way. Fortunately though, since the 1960s and the civil-rights era, things have taken a sharp turn towards social liberalism and secularism. So as a strong political movement, it's mostly defunct. It's just biding its time.

    Republicans are operating on the advice that they brush social issues to the side in order to keep getting elected. We haven't seen issues like gay marriage and drug prohibition take the front stage for conservatives anymore, even as marijuana laws are being erased and gay marriage becomes more accepted. You never really hear about the War On Drugs anymore, or even the Gay Agenda.

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