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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The #1 reason why the Soviet Union's economy was 1/3rd the size of the United States' (while being bigger, more populated, and having more natural resources) was that their command system couldn't set prices that made any sense. No one with a functioning brain and a rudimentary understanding of economics would suggest that the government should set income levels.
    No one with a functioning brain uses the Soviet Union as an example of a true socialist economy. There are plenty of first world countries, extremely successful countries, that have democratic socialist governments.

  2. #82
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    You ....do....realize....that there was a world long before our relatively new capitalist system came into play, right?
    First of all, no one in their right mind would want to go back to the days of subsistence farming, feudalism, and mercantilism. Secondly, even in those awful, awful times, supply and demand still existed, and people would make barter exchanges that benefited themselves. Like two bags of corn for a new axe. Is that not a market exchange? Of course it is.


    Um, the public and special interest groups and lawyers and other people who actually write legislation largely make up what is called "society." It's insane for the members of society to decide for themselves who should get what? Come again? People did this for absolutely EONS before modern capitalist notions were invented.
    No, they didn't. They either were subsistence farmers, or they were lucky enough to be nobility or warlords who used force to keep the masses down and themselves fed and clothed in finery.

    And yes, it's absolutely insane for "society" to slice up property and income by force of government. It's stupid, detrimental to society, and it necessitates outright thievery of private property.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #83
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I thought the point was that health and education are two things required for a productive workforce, and these things are becoming steadily more expensive, too expensive in many cases.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    No one with a functioning brain uses the Soviet Union as an example of a true socialist economy. There are plenty of first world countries, extremely successful countries, that have democratic socialist governments.
    First of all, most of these "democratic socialist" countries have gigantic, capitalist multinational corporations. There is a HUGE difference between socialism and a generous welfare state. Even in the European countries with big welfare states, they DON'T have the government setting the income levels for everyone in the country. That is what you were arguing for, and that is Soviet-style socialism.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #85
    WTF is this dude saying? A Schnitzel's Avatar
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    We're lazy because we're ungrateful slobs and proud of it!
    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    sheesh humans! for realz

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    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    And yes, it's absolutely insane for "society" to slice up property and income by force of government. It's stupid, detrimental to society, and it necessitates outright thievery of private property.
    Private property is a questionable concept, considering that almost everything people do on their land affects the surrounding land. Some people hoard land they don't need for themselves and drive land prices up. We don't live in a vaccum.

    Of course, this is coming from a person who has never really owned anything, whose mom has never owned anything, and has rented their whole life.

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    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A Schnitzel View Post
    We're lazy because we're ungrateful slobs and proud of it!
    Younguns understand there are hoops to jump through. It's just that by the time they enter the workforce, they're sick of it because they've already been doing it for 16+ years.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    First of all, no one in their right mind would want to go back to the days of subsistence farming, feudalism, and mercantilism. Secondly, even in those awful, awful times, supply and demand still existed, and people would make barter exchanges that benefited themselves. Like two bags of corn for a new axe. Is that not a market exchange? Of course it is.
    You're right. Let's not stay in these barbaric times we currently live in, basing our economy upon supply and demand like simple creatures. Since we're so advanced, we should try something new.




    No, they didn't. They either were subsistence farmers, or they were lucky enough to be nobility or warlords who used force to keep the masses down and themselves fed and clothed in finery.
    How is this all that different from now? And you're only talking about certain societies, anyhow. Some tribal societies were more evenly distributed. In fact the ideas that the English brought to the Americas in terms of "private property" etc. completely baffled and astonished Native Americans.

    And yes, it's absolutely insane for "society" to slice up property and income by force of government. It's stupid, detrimental to society, and it necessitates outright thievery of private property.
    Yet our entire United States economy is principally based upon theivery, beginning with conquering the Native American tribes, and taking slaves from Africa, then throw in a handful robber barons, some whities chasing Mexicans out of the South West, and we have quite the conflict about what constitutes "private property."

    Who is stupid here is very much a matter of opinion.

  9. #89
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Private property is a questionable concept, considering that almost everything people do on their land affects the surrounding land.
    Now we're getting into interesting territory, but, short of suggesting that private property shouldn't exist, a system of government wage control would necessitate taking private property by force. It's unavoidable. As for pollution and "externalities," someone like Rothbard would suggest that tangible destruction/devaluation of the property of others through one's own negligence would be a tort. We're getting way off-topic, though.


    Some people hoard land they don't need for themselves and drive land prices up. We don't live in a vaccum.
    Are you arguing for a single tax, then? I am not really down with it, but it's the least market-distorting tax we could probably have in society.


    Of course, this is coming from a person who has never owned anything, whose parents have never owned anything, and has rented their whole life.
    Your background has nothing at all to do with the relative correctness or incorrectness of your opinion.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    First of all, most of these "democratic socialist" countries have gigantic, capitalist multinational corporations. There is a HUGE difference between socialism and a generous welfare state. Even in the European countries with big welfare states, they DON'T have the government setting the income levels for everyone in the country. That is what you were arguing for, and that is Soviet-style socialism.
    I never suggested Soviet style socialism.

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