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  1. #121
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yes, but they bought ONE lottery ticket and got the entire prize, they don't add more utility than all the others who have won. You're completely throwing out randomness from your model of economic worth of individual, that's what's ticking people off - part of how much you can earn is randomly determined and not equal to economic value added.

    Btw, I'm also a geolibertarian.

    But randomness ISN'T unfair. It's random. Unfair would be different rules for different people.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #122
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    To say that these are best answered through the market begs the question, what type of market? The direction market is a reflection of governmental regulation (see medical insurance being tied to employment as an example). We cannot completely remove the government from the process, and even the idea of the "lowest possible level" is somewhat subjective. My point being, government intervention should be applied in a fashion that gives us the desired result.
    That last sentence sounds like the framework for letting the government do ANYTHING to achieve a desired result.


    Non-corporate farmers don't contribute much because the rules are stacked against them. They can't participate in the market like the large corporate farms that are pushing their externalities off on others. Would large corporate farms be "more efficient" if they were forced to cover these costs? I have my doubts. Perhaps in some respects (or with certain crops), but it most certainly would not be ubiquitous, as it is now.
    I would think that, even disregarding externalities, economies of scale would make it easier for corporate farming in most regards. However, there will always be a market for smaller farmers who specialize in crops that factory farming don't do or don't do as well. Also, I'd think you see some agribusiness companies either break up or slim down if you took them off the government's teat entirely. Archer Daniels Midland is a gigantic welfare queen, for instance.


    Any solution to the pollution externality issue has to take into account that corporations will probably have far more resources at their disposal (high priced, well funded legal teams) than the plantiffs, who would probably be either groups of individuals or municipalities. I have my doubts about any sort of judicial system solution succeeding. The playing field might be level before the law, but it's not level economically. I would rather see this applied more like a tax.
    And this is one of the problems I have with the Rothbardian model. I am sure the response would be along the lines of "we need to rethink the justice system entirely, a libertarian society would have more libertarian jurists/jurors" and so on. The practical application here would be very difficult in anything remotely close to our current system. If there are pretty clear-cut externalities at play, such as with carbon emissions, I'd prefer to see a straight carbon tax than either cap-and-trade or the current system of having everyone in the country foot the bill through more regulations and unreasonably high emissions standards, government cleanups of private environmental disasters, and all the other nonsensical environmental policy we currently have.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #123
    Senior Member Chunes's Avatar
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    My biggest gripe with the working world is that it's so impersonal. Yeah, I like eating, and so I deal with it. Just don't throw me into a sick world and expect me to be well-adjusted. It's this attitude that I should be better than society that kind of makes me irritated.
    "If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see."
    Thoreau

  4. #124
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    But randomness ISN'T unfair. It's random. Unfair would be different rules for different people.
    Yeah, it's not unfair, I agree. I'm only arguing that the income of a person doesn't necessarily reflect its economic value added. Most of the time it does, tho.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  5. #125
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah, it's not unfair, I agree. I'm only arguing that the income of a person doesn't necessarily reflect its economic value added. Most of the time it does, tho.
    Things like lotteries and sweepstakes don't function as normal one-to-one exchanges. It's a randomized payout to the group. It's a raffle, basically. And a bad investment.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #126
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That last sentence sounds like the framework for letting the government do ANYTHING to achieve a desired result.
    But you know I don't believe that. I prefer soft methods (like tax incentives and disincentives) to hard methods (like price and wage fixing).

    I would think that, even disregarding externalities, economies of scale would make it easier for corporate farming in most regards. However, there will always be a market for smaller farmers who specialize in crops that factory farming don't do or don't do as well. Also, I'd think you see some agribusiness companies either break up or slim down if you took them off the government's teat entirely. Archer Daniels Midland is a gigantic welfare queen, for instance.
    I think that economies of scale gain much (not all) of their advantage with their ability to pass costs on to others. Someone with an acre of land and only a couple dozen chickens doesn't need to worry about animal waste polluting the water runoff because the land can absorb a certain amount of waste. A corporate farm with 1000+ chickens per acre does, but we don't penalize them for this.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You could have just written: "I don't really know. It just sounds like there would be to me, but I have no proof."
    The practical limitations of libertarianism are obvious.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    The practical limitations of libertarianism are obvious.

    Are they? Please elaborate.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Are they? Please elaborate.
    I and others already elaborated here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...c-views-6.html

    Of course there's much more to say, but I have to go so this is the quickest way to go about it at the moment.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I and others already elaborated here: http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...c-views-6.html

    Of course there's much more to say, but I have to go so this is the quickest way to go about it at the moment.

    I see absolutely no practical limitations of libertarianism listed anywhere in that thread, and I read every single post in it. Major fail.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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