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  1. #41
    Senior Member kathara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    You have reproduced?
    That is irrelevant.

  2. #42
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathara View Post
    Maybe by family and friends. Forgive me, but I dont give a shit for anyone's children but mine.
    Evolutionary speaking, humans are social creatures. One of the by-product of being social creatures is having the capability to 'feel' for the tribe. Yes, even the communal tribe beyond 'your own' - it's an evolutionary advantage. You seem to be an anomaly to a normal human.

    And grieve for someone you never bonded with on any level is nothing else but a superficial fraud.
    I grieve because my mind has the capability to achieve metacognition, and, I can place myself beyond me. Sympathy, empathy. These are all human conditions [this is not anything new]. So, what makes that fradulent? Maybe, you're the fraud in your denial?

    My human condition is not represented by a genetic freak, but by choices people make or by the blind eye they turn on others.
    All of our human condition is represented by the vast spectrum/variety in the manifestation of human beings and their potentials. From the extremely debilitating to the extremely 'superior'. Most of us are average, and we lie in the middle of that Normal Distribution. That doesn't make our capacity to understand the range on either side of us, moot.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Evolutionary speaking, humans are social creatures. One of the by-product of being social creatures is having the capability to 'feel' for the tribe. Yes, even the communal tribe beyond 'your own' - it's an evolutionary advantage. You seem to be an anomaly to a normal human.
    Does she? Basically she's saying that some random person she heard about on the internet isn't part of her 'tribe'. What does that say about the people who are grieving for this child?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #44
    Senior Member kathara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Does she? Basically she's saying that some random person she heard about on the internet isn't part of her 'tribe'. What does that say about the people who are grieving for this child?

    Ooo, long time no see. Hope everything's going well for you! Sorry for giving you grief last time we communicated.

  5. #45
    Senior Member kathara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangol View Post
    What point? That "perfection is to be encouraged, whereas deformity dismissed, not embraced and cuddled"?

    I'm not crying over anything. I'm just upset that you're using the history of art and science to dismiss human empathy. I'm pretty sure they weren't all Utilitarian, and that the general attitude was toward a greater understanding of reality. Plato may have been hot and heavy about the idea of perfection, and many philosophers and theologians may have pursued the idea since then, but it's hardly a serious issue today. The image and idea of perfection varies from individual to individual. The theory of Natural Selection supports the idea that unfavorable traits tend to get eliminated from gene pools over time, but it doesn't say anything about how we should care for them. If anything, it reminds us that genetics aren't stable, static constructions, and that mutations often result in unfavorable traits. It reminds us that it could happen to any of us, which then invokes in most people a sense of vulnerability and empathy, particularly for those who make an effort to maintain as dignified a life possible. For this particular case, it looks like she did great for a 10-year old girl, who are often spoiled and fat even without the handicap of having no legs and no real hope for a future.
    I am not using art history to justify the lack of empathy, I am using it to show that we appreciate the beauty and perfection of the human figure. Deformity is not appreciated, and actually perceived as a threat, not as something to be empathic towards. This modern sense of empathy is a social construct, not one written in our code.

    Very well, she did great. SO? Why is that supposed to invoke any type of sympathy in me? Being fat and annoying is not such a great accomplishment. I respect Stephen Hawking for his work and his getting over physical issues. He did something more than live.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kangol View Post
    Are you also trying to point out that the story is overblown just because she's a celebrity of sorts? That humans have fascinations with out-of-the-ordinary people? Or do you just get upset at semi-celebrities who die of unfortunate genetic anomalies after an unexpectedly long lifespan? There's nothing wrong with that, except that it suggests you may be lacking in the normal neural wiring for empathy that many others seem to have, which would then make you genetically anomalous as well.
    Hypocrites are bread in large quantities these days. I am empathic towards certain people only. I am not a saint, nor a god. Usually is people I know, or have feelings towards, or people I could identity myself to a degree. She is in none of these categories, hence I don't care. Pretty easy. You don't either, you are simply incapable of realizing and admitting to it. You only think you do because that answers your one selfish need to feel good about yourself.

  6. #46
    Senior Member kathara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    Evolutionary speaking, humans are social creatures. One of the by-product of being social creatures is having the capability to 'feel' for the tribe. Yes, even the communal tribe beyond 'your own' - it's an evolutionary advantage. You seem to be an anomaly to a normal human.
    Evolutionary speaking, humans have always destroy the handicapped, so that the tribe does not have to support a useless creature. My tribe is not the world, my tribe is composed of people surrounding me. Are you empathic to all the 7 billion people? Congratulations, either you are insane, or you are some sort of deity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    I grieve because my mind has the capability to achieve metacognition, and, I can place myself beyond me. Sympathy, empathy. These are all human conditions [this is not anything new]. So, what makes that fradulent? Maybe, you're the fraud in your denial?
    Again, the human mind has defensive mechanisms that shield you from too much pain. This is why you can read about the death of a million in some battle and not grieve, while you might feel sorry over this girl.

    And sympathy, empathy, as all human emotions appear in certain settings, in which one's mind responds to the stimulus in the other person. When that lacks ... I guess you appear like a fraud in denial. LOL!

    Quote Originally Posted by Qre:us View Post
    All of our human condition is represented by the vast spectrum/variety in the manifestation of human beings and their potentials. From the extremely debilitating to the extremely 'superior'. Most of us are average, and we lie in the middle of that Normal Distribution. That doesn't make our capacity to understand the range on either side of us, moot.
    You can understand it, and yet not be empathic to it. I don't see her example as any type of example but perhaps a medical curiosity. It does not say anything new to me as a human being. Not like other persons which did activate the empathic brain.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Does she? Basically she's saying that some random person she heard about on the internet isn't part of her 'tribe'. What does that say about the people who are grieving for this child?
    Who is grieving? No one in this thread (btw, simply stating that you have empathy doesn't mean that you're grieving or 'crying'.)
    I understand Kathara's meaning, but I'm annoyed at the way he/she comports him/herself. It's rather juvenile. Clearly intended to gratuitously stir the pot...

  8. #48
    Senior Member Kangol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathara View Post
    I am not using art history to justify the lack of empathy, I am using it to show that we appreciate the beauty and perfection of the human figure. Deformity is not appreciated, and actually perceived as a threat, not as something to be empathic towards. This modern sense of empathy is a social construct, not one written in our code.

    Very well, she did great. SO? Why is that supposed to invoke any type of sympathy in me? Being fat and annoying is not such a great accomplishment. I respect Stephen Hawking for his work and his getting over physical issues. He did something more than live.
    No one's saying her deformity is what was so great about her. No one's applauding her being fat and annoying. If you think that's the reason people are using the term 'empathy' here, you really have no idea what it means.

    I don't think most people who heard the news are going to lose sleep over this, but most will at least feel some sort of remorse, whether it's from the thought of losing a daughter with a terminal illness yet kept an appetite for life, or losing a daughter, period. For me, I just feel a sharp reminder that I ought to have a positive perspective on life, especially since I don't have any serious defects or near-death sentence to feel burdened with. It's not a life-defining moment; it's just another example to help keep me grateful and respectful of human life. I'm not going to dismiss that by thinking that she ought to have discovered black holes or anything productive to society, because that would be retarded. She was 10 years old. By this reasoning, if all value of life boils down to productivity, we should shove away all cripples, terminally ill patients, and other handicapped members of society into a furnace, because really, why does it matter?


    Quote Originally Posted by kathara View Post
    Hypocrites are bread in large quantities these days. I am empathic towards certain people only. I am not a saint, nor a god. Usually is people I know, or have feelings towards, or people I could identity myself to a degree. She is in none of these categories, hence I don't care. Pretty easy. You don't either, you are simply incapable of realizing and admitting to it. You only think you do because that answers your one selfish need to feel good about yourself.
    If you didn't care, it wouldn't matter, yet you seem to harbor enough emotion about the situation to call her a freak and fatty. Most normal people who honestly don't care about things, they leave it alone, because that's just it, they don't care. You, on the other hand, seem to be offended at this situation, either at her or at the thought that other people feel for her. In either case, that's considered "cold-hearted" and "being a bitch", which you may be fine with, but you have to be prepared for the responses.

    I didn't originally care enough to respond to this thread, but I did care enough to argue with your reasoning, especially when you started bringing in art and science, which, by the way, isn't all about glamorizing human perfection. No doctor will ever tell you that the human body is perfect, and many artists have emphasized the ugly, fragile nature of humanity, which too lends to the beauty of life.

  9. #49
    Senior Member kathara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    Who is grieving? No one in this thread (btw, simply stating that you have empathy doesn't mean that you're grieving or 'crying'.)
    I understand Kathara's meaning, but I'm annoyed at the way he/she comports him/herself. It's rather juvenile. Clearly intended to gratuitously stir the pot...
    Empathy is a strong feeling for me, not a superficial one.

    I am not trying to stir the pot, that is just my style. I am a bit of an acquired taste I suppose.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Qre:us's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Does she? Basically she's saying that some random person she heard about on the internet isn't part of her 'tribe'. What does that say about the people who are grieving for this child?
    I don't think anyone's intent here was to trivialize the situation for those directly [related] going through this incident. Nor are we 'grieving' with crocodile tears of (de)nile.

    But, it does speak to quite a few things, why those on the 'net' replied the way they did.


    First.......

    that altruism isn't a dichotomy to biological kinship.

    One can work alongside the other.

    The difference is the degree of capacity to feel. Given the 'degree of seperation to you and that X other'. E.g., seperation can even shorten in degree if there's someone out there with a disabled/special needs child themselves, reading this off the net. Yet, it still remains a feeling.

    Pain is one of the hardest thing in scientific research to quantify. Although, when we talk of pain, that word triggers a meaning, regardless of net seperation, we understand the meaning of that word. Yet, we can't universally quantify...and, say I know exactly what you feel. Too much variety in quality.

    That doesn't mean I won't be able to feel at all? Quite the extreme dichotomy; wouldn't that be?

    Death is death. Feeling a sadness, feeling empathy, sympathy; shouldn't be such a foreign concept to understand, surrounding death.


    As an interesting aside:

    Since the evolution of the modern-man's mind, we have conceived one great universal abstraction before we got to tackling "GOD". And, that was death. One thing older than 'religion' [institutionalized god] is rituals surrounding death and dying.

    My hypothesis is that the universal empathy for what it means: death and dying, was what spurred us to think beyond our finality. To something more. God. A security blanket for the tangibility of the human mind/life[so intrinsically tied]...existence/ial....that it will one day cease to exist/know. We will live on.

    Finality of life.

    Your internet connection need not be stellar to understand and emphatize/sympathize with that.

    Beyond having that commonality to your tribe, another is socially [human relations]-speaking:

    A mother[father] lost a child grow to 10 years. For whatever decision she made [didn't make at the time]: present reality, a child of hers she watched live for 10 years. That loss. Pain/suffering watching a child live life through that. However, subjectively "good" that definition of life encapsulates.

    Cuz, you know, we, as humans [tribal morality] decided, doing them in like Old Yeller is wrong. Esp. after the fact.

    ************


    Quote Originally Posted by kathara View Post
    That is irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    You have reproduced?
    I found this above exchange ironically amusing, as kathara, you are being asked if, given your personal history, if you can [or are lacking to] emphatize/sympathize ...

    [flavoured with an added lemon twist, ENTP-style]

    ...and kathara, your stance is that regardless of your own pov, you'd still be able to, rationally, "T"- 'understand' and thus "detachedly" (pfft) comment on this topic.

    Yet, you can't comprehend how one can feel compassion/"F"-"understand" a tale off the net, and comment on how it impacted them?

    ****

    Lateralus & kathara:

    Are you trying to rationalize why it is inconsequential to even 'feel' for a news that directly doesn't connect to your immediate reality? Do you like living in a bubble?

    Capacity of reason [alone] does not a human make. "Feeling"/emotional brain precedes 'capacity to reason' in the evolution of the human brain. And, the emotional brain didn't get wiped out for an evolutionary reason. So....

    Good luck with that, regardless.

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