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  1. #11
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    People have always been tribal, and remain so.
    I think that's all the answer we need right there.
    That.

    And basically also, the people doing it don't see that they are doing it, they feel that they're representing their viewpoint fairly and well.

    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    Maybe we should set up a formal debate where two people agree to debate for the opposite side they actually agree with. I wonder if they could do it without going back to their original position? Of course by doing so, they would be losing the debate. It might stir things up in a good way.
    Maybe once we get the online zapping plug-in running, where we can fry the brain of the loser at a distance, this would be a wonderful way to proceed!
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #12
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    You lack a social democracy here. Accusing people of tribalism is an easy thing to do for someone who can afford it. But the majority of people isnt cut out to be constantly thriving for the best.

    (omg, I hope noone of my conservative party colleagues saw me posting that )
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #13
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    ... But the majority of people isnt cut out to be constantly thriving for the best.
    Could you restate this? I want to understand what you're saying.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #14
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Could you restate this? I want to understand what you're saying.
    I think he meant something like this:

    It's easy to accuse people of tribalism when you live in a society where people can afford to be otherwise (implying the US's economic wealth). But the majority of the world's people are in no position to constantly strive for a more ideal way of being than what comes naturally.

    Right?

  5. #15
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Maybe once we get the online zapping plug-in running, where we can fry the brain of the loser at a distance, this would be a wonderful way to proceed!
    hahaha

    Where can people find examples of rational debate? Rarely in the U.S. Congress or the media. People are emulating what is demonstrated in our leadership. Maybe the place to start is to find good models of debate for people to watch, but after ten thousands impressions of poor debate, one or two youtube links might not be enough. I am not speaking of individual posters here because I've mostly stayed out of those debates, but how can a person learn reasoning skills when there are so few good examples after which to model. It might still be worth finding links, or finding ways to discuss the process of reasoning and debate itself outside the context of political conclusions.

    I used to post on a philosophy forum years ago and remember certain people representing certain positions. I came back years later to see the exact same debates and posters only each had become more deeply entrenched in their positions. It made me wonder about the purpose of stating opinions and debating anything.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  6. #16
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by toonia View Post
    I am not speaking of individual posters here because I've mostly stayed out of those debates, but how can a person learn reasoning skills when there are so few good examples after which to model.
    I agree.

    And the main problem is that the behavior is not rewarded.
    We reward other things in today's western culture.

    People have no time or interest to learn things that are irrelevant to their lives.

    I used to post on a philosophy forum years ago and remember certain people representing certain positions. I came back years later to see the exact same debates and posters only each had become more deeply entrenched in their positions. It made me wonder about the purpose of stating opinions and debating anything.
    I believe nowadays more people engage in order to feel they have a voice and to promote their opinions and ideas rather than in order to learn and develop an understanding that reflects the larger world. This is reflected in the popular media/culture, with so many avenues for personal expression and exploration.

    Media has fractured information and put so much spin on it that we have no way of telling what is true anymore anyway... so what's the point of arguing rationally? We've lost any sense of baseline.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #17
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Could you restate this? I want to understand what you're saying.
    I meant, I know this attitude of people of accusing other people for doing things wrong like for example to show tribal behaviour and I think it's the wrong attitude, cause if one would really care, he would try to help those people to see things a different way and maybe learn a bit in the process.

    Of course one cant help everybody, but one should then at least not accuse dumber people for being more dumb, cause that would be just dumb.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  8. #18
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    I blame it on the american quasi-bipartidary system and clique mentality.

    Ralph Nader for president!

  9. #19
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I believe nowadays more people engage in order to feel they have a voice and to promote their opinions and ideas rather than in order to learn and develop an understanding that reflects the larger world. This is reflected in the popular media/culture, with so many avenues for personal expression and exploration.
    Yeah, that makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Media has fractured information and put so much spin on it that we have no way of telling what is true anymore anyway... so what's the point of arguing rationally? We've lost any sense of baseline.
    That sums it up well. I have some political leanings, but can see manipulation tactics at play on various sides of the issues. I've always thought that if a position is strong enough, it does not require tactics. Those are the last resort of an attempt to promote a faulty idea. When tactics abound, credibility disintegrates and like you said, there is no baseline. Taking the position of pure skepticism doesn't produce any more accurate conclusions, so where does that leave a person?
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  10. #20
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    I meant, I know this attitude of people of accusing other people for doing things wrong like for example to show tribal behaviour and I think it's the wrong attitude, cause if one would really care, he would try to help those people to see things a different way and maybe learn a bit in the process.
    Ah, got it -- thanks!

    And yeah, it seems to be more nitpicking the other guy in order to win popularity points while not making anything better at all in the meanwhile. There are a lot of exclusionary tactics in play there, a la Star Bellied Sneetch.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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