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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by htb View Post
    Disco, I don't understand how your alienation relates to the TNR article. Dionne is portraying the Republican Party as far-right, when in fact the GOP is encumbered by statist and time-serving inclinations of too many moderates, especially at the state level.

    The political problem is this: all candidates being equal, the cultural Left fairly effectively portrays Republicans as bigoted cretins, giving undecided voters pause about identifying with or voting for them. Republicans in competitive districts or contentious states respond by alloying their positions and messages. But this fails to attract many undecided voters, mindful of social consequences simply for choosing the tainted brand; let alone left-liberals like EJ Dionne, who are instead playing a devilish game of Simon Says. And it repels conservatives and libertarians who watch a milquetoast party believe commentators like Dionne and start running left.
    Quite right. I just used the article as a pretext to create a thread about the disintegration of the Republican party.

    You make good points with your arguments about the tainted nature of the brand.

    Its gonna take me a little bit to effectively respond to the rest of your post.

  2. #22
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    The general public consists of around 95% of the total available voters therefore when races go after names and so forth they vote 1) not 2) with the latest name they saw on a sign 3) against definitons of party repulsives 4) third party candidates they never heard of before, just to stick it to the man 5) with the dogma in their hearts that were passed onto them by indoctrination

    just a side note, I'm usually never voting for reason #5 above because my dad was a republican and my ma a democrat, though a weak one. I have to remember that republicans are the ones with money. yes yes yes I never liked to ask my dad for money but he was the one who had it. (where's the smilie bank when I need it?!)

  3. #23
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    seems like regardless of Democrats or Republicans the US majority will stupidly continue to lose constitutional freedoms (in the war against terror, to “protect children”, war on drugs/crime etc…) until they return to something more akin to a feudal state and take on their new roles as serfs/slaves.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    seems like regardless of Democrats or Republicans the US majority will stupidly continue to lose constitutional freedoms (in the war against terror, to “protect children”, war on drugs/crime etc…) until they return to something more akin to a feudal state and take on their new roles as serfs/slaves.
    yeah, and you can can on my vote for that one! i don't even remember what a feudal state as a slave was, and your logic is crappy imo.

    my new mantra: >everyone should vote for me as president in the next election<

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    seems like regardless of Democrats or Republicans the US majority will stupidly continue to lose constitutional freedoms (in the war against terror, to “protect children”, war on drugs/crime etc…) until they return to something more akin to a feudal state and take on their new roles as serfs/slaves.
    And lets not forget the president currently pushing for net neutrality legislation (internet regulation), and is leaning towards globalist policy that erodes sovereignty. Nothing has been achieved yet, but TRYING is just as bad. I honestly don't see the difference between democrats and republicans (the politicians, not the general public) in this regard. They just want more government power for different reasons. Republicans just do it more slowly than extreme progressive democrats, if the progressives could have it their way without resistance. And don't let me forget the freedom to choose who to get healthcare from. Can't have that choice.

  6. #26
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    And lets not forget the president currently pushing for net neutrality legislation (internet regulation), and is leaning towards globalist policy that erodes sovereignty. Nothing has been achieved yet, but TRYING is just as bad. I honestly don't see the difference between democrats and republicans (the politicians, not the general public) in this regard. They just want more government power for different reasons. Republicans just do it more slowly than extreme progressive democrats, if the progressives could have it their way without resistance. And don't let me forget the freedom to choose who to get healthcare from. Can't have that choice.
    I understand how you feel. And in general I am at odds with socialized medicine as contrary to my fundamental values but in this climate find it the lesser of too evils. George W. Bush $500 billion Medicare Prescription Drug Bill did little but funnels future tax dollars to the precription drug/insurance industry with little return to the citizen/consumer.

    With Obama plan I suspect the citizen/consumer will get more out of it (although pay more than necessary for it). In other words its a Hobson's Choice, lose freedom/$ and get something lesser back (similar to a consolation prize) or have neocons give our freedom/taxes/tort reform to feudal lords in the insurance industry who will find technical reasons to back out on health care needs when we need it (and essentially bribe both GOP and Democrats for essential immunity or otherwise having corporate shills as judges when the sick and dying seek recourse)

    Admittedly its like saying I like the good cop who played good cop/bad cop before I lost my freedom and was unfairly incarcerated. Yet there is no real choice.

    The best course of action for the Republican/GOP purest is not business as usually; polarization (i.e. telling the Democrats what they are doing is wrong) rather the GOP cleaning their own house first. Booting the neocons from the ranks and work fiscal conservative policies, limited our obligations abroad, and work on stopping bribing of public officials with "election contributions". There are some good Democrats (as well as good Republicans) who know outside influences beyond the voting public are affecting politics.

    Polarizaton needs to stop and the good/less corupt from both ranks need to be courted in a coillition against corruption and the freedom from the corporate and outsider elite (including China's and Israels influance) looting of our country.
    Last edited by Vizconde; 10-23-2009 at 02:15 PM. Reason: added an industry I ommited
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    With Obama plan I suspect the citizen/consumer will get more out of it (although pay more than necessary for it).
    Huh? I thought conservatives were up in arms because a public option would supposedly put private insurers out of business (since it doesn't have to turn a profit). Now private insurance is cheaper all of a sudden?

    in before people ignorant to the math behind insurance tell me that private competition lowers prices.. (if you don't understand what I'm getting at, a hint would be to look at the costs in payouts that insurance companies must give and ask in what ways is it possible for them to lower these costs)
    Ti = Ne > Fi = Ni > Te = Si > Fe = Se

    "I've never seen a child who didn't want to build something out of blocks, or learn something new, or try the next task. And the only reason why adults aren't like that is, I suppose, that they have been sent to school and other oppressive institutions which have driven that out of them."
    -- Noam Chomsky

  8. #28
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgetful Functor View Post
    Huh? I thought conservatives were up in arms because a public option would supposedly put private insurers out of business (since it doesn't have to turn a profit). Now private insurance is cheaper all of a sudden?

    in before people ignorant to the math behind insurance tell me that private competition lowers prices.. (if you don't understand what I'm getting at, a hint would be to look at the costs in payouts that insurance companies must give and ask in what ways is it possible for them to lower these costs)
    The insurance companies "now in power" will make a profit and continue to make profits because they "wisely invest" in bribing our politicians (Hillary Clinton being one of the greatest profiteers). They don't want a free market they want the game slanted in their favor (i.e. Monopoly).


    The game is fixed. Follow the money. The "free market" is not free. (i.e. the bailout was about corporate welfare). It reminds me of a quote that went something like this to highlight this point that there is no free market economy (not exact quote but the best to my memory).

    Reporter: What do you think about the freemarket economy?

    Noam Chomsky: Reminds me of a question that was once posed to Mahatma Gandhi: 'What do you think of Western civilization?' He's supposed to have answered: 'I think it would be a good idea.'...I would say I think a free market would be a good idea if they ever tried it"

    In other words as a business person what would be more financially profitable delivering on insurance policies in the highest good faith or bribing politicians so you could collect premiums and not pay out on the most costly ones?
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    The insurance companies "now in power" will make a profit and continue to make profits because they "wisely invest" in bribing our politicians (Hillary Clinton being one of the greatest profiteers). They don't want a free market they want the game slanted in their favor (i.e. Monopoly).
    Wouldn't it make more sense to get rid of prohibitions regarding purchasing insurance across state lines, tame medical lawsuits, etc, and then see what the health care market actually looks like without such distortions, before quickly settling on what one perceives as the "lesser of two evils," particularly when the ultimate costs, consequences, and sustainability of such a massive new entitlement program are unknown?

  10. #30
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    medical lawsuits are extremely difficult as things stand. That is how the insurance industry can make such huge profits to bribe politicians in the first place. Opening state lines would have little impact as the insurance companies who sell in California are near identical to those in NY (multistate if not multinational corporations). The insurance companies are like a theives guild who rather than competing against each other conspire with each other to set terms and prices which are near uniform. It is such a mess now only a public option would be able to threaten them with real competition.

    However more than this is needed. What needed is standardized language of minimal care current insurance industries need to abide by and enforcement of such legislation so someone will not be denied insurance for critical care because some illusive "preexisting injury" was discovered. If policyies are to be cancled because of preexisting injurys such cancelation should be well before critical hospital care is needed. Injury could happen to anyone, does happen to a lot of people, could happen to you any time "but for the grace of god go I". Fuck the fat cats insurance industry crooks, they made the problem in the first place.

    The point being things have gotten so messed up a bandaid is not going to cure the problem. Pragmatism is necessary absent a country wide violent revolution. We continue to be taxed and get little in return, meanwhile the deficit gets astronomical. Thus the Hobson's choice on medical and social services. And why are we still the fuck in Afganistan (Al Qaeda are mainly in Pakistan now) and Iraq (the invasion was based on a false pretense of weapons of mass distruction fact that nobody is seriously debating) for all the money we have spent over there we could all be having essentially free healthcare.
    I redact everything I have written or will write on this forum prior to, subsequent with and or after the fact of its writing. For entertainment purposes only and not to be taken seriously nor literally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Edgar View Post
    Spamtar - a strange combination of boorish drunkeness and erudite discussions, or what I call "an Irish academic"

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