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  1. #31
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    I severely doubt that anyone can argue that any of the supposed reflections of socialism we have seen thus far are true forms that adhere wonderfully to the Marxist ideals of socialism.
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
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  2. #32
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    It's pointless to try splitting this hair. All economic models are bound to be socio-economic models. How on earth would you establish an economic system without arrangng society for it in some way? So none of socialism, capitalism, and communism are "just" economic models.
    I suppose I meant that they don't have to overlap with particular social models more than other economic models do, and obviously yes they all do to an extent. I didn't take a lot of time to think about how to word that, but I meant it in relative terms. What I was objecting to was the apparent belief that socialism and communism would by definition require more collectivism than the USA currently has. I'll concede communism probably does on second thoughts, but certainly socialism doesn't have to involve less overall individualism. Some of the most socialist countries in Europe are more individualistic than the USA.

  3. #33
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    I severely doubt that anyone can argue that any of the supposed reflections of socialism we have seen thus far are true forms that adhere wonderfully to the Marxist ideals of socialism.
    Well, to begin with, Marx didn't have ideals of socialism. His heart was in communism and only believed socialism to be a necessary transitional stage from capitalism to communism.

    Secondly, an ideal is always just an ideal. We've never seen a reflection of any economic ideal. We should generally conerns ourselve with the degree to which a subject leans toward the theoretical ideal, without expecting it to ever be identical to the theoretical ideal.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    I severely doubt that anyone can argue that any of the supposed reflections of socialism we have seen thus far are true forms that adhere wonderfully to the Marxist ideals of socialism.
    Marx didn't invent socialism, and he saw it as a steppingstone stage before the idealized communist stateless "workers' society."
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  5. #35
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Jynx!
    There you go, MP. I owe you a Coke.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Even then, I'd say China has both more socialist and more capitalist elements than it does communist elements. I'd say communist is the least of the three.
    According to Marxist theory, socialism is the transitional stage between capitalism and communism. And a free market and socialism are not necessarily opposites. There is a conception of "Market socialism" for example.

  8. #38
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    According to Marxist theory, socialism is the transitional stage between capitalism and communism. And a free market and socialism are not necessarily opposites. There is a conception of "Market socialism" for example.
    ...You just told me things I already know. One of them being really obvious, on account of the posts just prior to yours.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    ...You just told me things I already know. One of them being really obvious, on account of the posts just prior to yours.
    I wasnt addressing you per se, but further clarifying things for the gallery.

  10. #40

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    There's so much misinformation in this thread that I don't think it's even possible to correct all of it. Risen, why do you keep referencing the dichotomy (or scale) of democracy-communism? There is no such scale. Any communist society would have to be democratic because it would be by definition stateless. Capitalism, on the other hand, can be seen to exist with a spectrum of statism to so-called libertarianism (I say this because the original use of the term libertarian was by the libertarian socialists, aka anarchist-communists). So the PRC for instance is a state-capitalist nation. You, Risen, are the one arguing that the sky is green and pink in this case. But don't take my word for it...

    Most Americans still persist in thinking of China as a Communist society, the result of lifetimes of pro-capitalist brain washing, one might add. But are they right about that?

    ...

    ..China is home to 100 billionaires and that 1/3 of them are members of the so-called Communist Party. That should give one pause to do some serious thinking. What kind of communism is it that has 34 billionaires as members?!!! Conclusion? This communist party is no longer in any serious way, a real communist party. China in no way should still be thought of as in any way communist.
    China, the capitalist land of Communist Party billionaires -notmytribe.com

    While China, the worlds most populous nation with 1.3 billion people, still enforces a one-child policy, families raking in dough are spending accordingly. That one kid (imagine a country full of only children!) could be enrolled in an after-school junior M.B.A. program by the age of five. Horse-riding lessons, dancing classes and high tea. The Hamptons in Beijing.

    There is a seedy underbelly to the capitalist enterprise. Swaths of the population lose social services in exchange for those horse-riding lessons. Maos Cultural Revolution in 1960s and 70s produced a 90% literate populace, and no worker went without healthcare. This is history.

    To put it simply, the western half of the country has caught the short end of the stick. Work centers, now privatized, have gone bankrupt and are without medical services. Farmers cant pay school fees for their children. Ogden says it's going very poorly. The government is working on the problemeradicating school fees, for instancebut the communal ideal is undoubtedly a vanquished reality.

    Since Deng Xiaoping commenced economic reforms in 1978, the Chinese economy has grown at a staggering 9% annually. China entered the World Trade Organization in 2001, decidedly signaling the former communist states transformation into a capitalist superpower.
    The New York Inquirer: Is China Communist? No.

    I'll end on the note of Mikhail Bakunin, who said,

    We are convinced that freedom without Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism without freedom is slavery and brutality.
    Ti = Ne > Fi = Ni > Te = Si > Fe = Se

    "I've never seen a child who didn't want to build something out of blocks, or learn something new, or try the next task. And the only reason why adults aren't like that is, I suppose, that they have been sent to school and other oppressive institutions which have driven that out of them."
    -- Noam Chomsky

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