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  1. #21
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    People can look at the same information you have and interpret it differently.
    Which does nothing to prove your assertion that Jesus was a radical egalitarian.


    Don't get your panties in a twist.
    Practice what you preach.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Grayscale's Avatar
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    If Jesus wasn't the son of man then it doesn't really matter if he was a egalitarian or not, eh?

    Anyways, let's stay on topic

  3. #23
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Regardless of whether the jurors brought in the bibles or not, it doesn't matter. It's not legal to punish people for their religious beliefs, as much as it's not legal to punish people WITH religious beliefs.

    The *LAW* is set up to be very specific on the information that juries are allowed to use for information to interpret. Adding religious material to whot's supposed to be a fact-based trial goes against the point of having a jury in the first place.

    We seriously don't need another run of Salem, or McCarthyism to get out again. Separation of church and state is there for a very good reason, and when people's lives are decided based on religious belief rather than fact based evidence, that doesn't bode well in general.

  4. #24
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    The *LAW* is set up to be very specific on the information that juries are allowed to use for information to interpret. Adding religious material to whot's supposed to be a fact-based trial goes against the point of having a jury in the first place.
    The decision concerning whether or not to impose the death penalty is inherently a matter of discretion (as opposed to a mandatory sentence for specific crimes), which is necessarily influenced by a juror's (or a judge's) subjective belief system. This does not go against the point of having jury trails, at all.

  5. #25
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The decision concerning whether or not to impose the death penalty is inherently a matter of discretion (as opposed to a mandatory sentence for specific crimes), which is necessarily influenced by a juror's (or a judge's) subjective belief system. This does not go against the point of having jury trails, at all.
    Wasn't the issue was that they were reading prescribed punishments for ancient Israel (i.e., another country long gone) and using that as a guideline to how to punish people here?

    Morality might seem to make sense in terms of broad principles, but jurors should not be directly applying case law from a 2500-year-old culture to today's culture; if they had been trying to apply modern-day legal codes from Turkey or China to the US, I doubt that would have been kosher either and people would be complaining.

    of course, because their acceptance of the Jewish code is deemed "religious" (rather than labeling it as intellectual suspect, as it would be if they were just mirroring case law from another country in today's world), now suddenly people feel like it's an attack on their beliefs.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  6. #26
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Morality might seem to make sense in terms of broad principles, but jurors should not be directly applying case law from a 2500-year-old culture to today's culture; if they had been trying to apply modern-day legal codes from Turkey or China to the US, I doubt that would have been kosher either and people would be complaining.
    Juries and judges alike already do that by referencing international bans on capital punishment as a normative justification for deciding against the death penalty-and so long as that is not confused with a legally binding law, its perfectly legal and not at odds with the American judicial system. And for the record, I don't think the Old Testament is a particularly good normative arbiter for discretionary punishments (not to mention laws), either.

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Juries and judges alike already do that by referencing international bans on capital punishment as a normative justification for deciding against the death penalty-and so long as that is not confused with a legally binding law, its perfectly legal and not at odds with the American judicial system. And for the record, I don't think the Old Testament is a particularly good normative arbiter for discretionary punishments (not to mention laws), either.
    i guess my question is more about what basis is acceptable; these people were appealing to OT law because of their personal beliefs, not because there is an established legal precedent here between that culture and ours.

    if not for their religious beliefs, they would have not chosen to pursue that particular authority.

    if muslims would have done this (appealing in such specific terms to the koran), or a minority religion or even a cult, would this really even be a matter of debate now? wouldn't they toss the judgment?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    if muslims would have done this (appealing in such specific terms to the koran), or a minority religion or even a cult, would this really even be a matter of debate now? wouldn't they toss the judgment?
    Not if their subjective religious justifications are not in opposition to the discretion granted to them by the secular law. For instance, if a juror is thought to have condemned a Wiccan murderer to death on the basis of the convict's religious identification rather than the crime itself, then it would constitute grounds for a mistrail. If their cited religious beliefs advocate death for what is a capital crime in secular law, then the judgement would stand.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 10-19-2009 at 03:08 PM. Reason: clarification

  9. #29
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    Jesus was a radical egalitarian. I don't think many modern Christians would identify with him.
    It's true that the New Testament has a bit of a liberal bias, at least compared to the Old Testament. Which it should, because it's a more recent document.

    Both have outlived their usefulness though, and are pretty much anti-innovation.

    Some conservatives want to go even further back in time and cut out the Bible's liberal passages. Auto-fail.

    Conservative Bible Project Cuts Out Liberal Passages

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    i guess my question is more about what basis is acceptable; these people were appealing to OT law because of their personal beliefs, not because there is an established legal precedent here between that culture and ours.

    if not for their religious beliefs, they would have not chosen to pursue that particular authority.

    if muslims would have done this (appealing in such specific terms to the koran), or a minority religion or even a cult, would this really even be a matter of debate now? wouldn't they toss the judgment?
    +1

  10. #30
    Senior Member Valuable_Money's Avatar
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    This thread = People deciding that this trial was botched based on limited imformation


    I seriously think that more goes into deciding the fate of a mans life than reading a few passages from the bible. Besides those who supposedly decided on this after reading the bible would of most likely made the same decision either way considering that's evidence that they BELIEVE the bible. No one who didnt already believe the bible would be convinced by a passage of the bible.


    This is all a clever ploy by the defense.
    Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh? wgah'nagl fhtagn

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