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View Poll Results: Towards which are you currently leaning?

Voters
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  • Labour

    3 20.00%
  • Conservatives

    3 20.00%
  • Liberal Democrats

    3 20.00%
  • UKIP

    0 0%
  • Greens

    1 6.67%
  • BNP

    1 6.67%
  • Respect

    0 0%
  • A party not listed

    2 13.33%
  • Not voting

    1 6.67%
  • No preference yet

    1 6.67%
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Results 21 to 30 of 36

  1. #21
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    But apathy is also the plague of the Scots, created by centuries of subjugation and powerlessness.
    :yim_rolling_on_the_ Srsly. Where did you read Scottish history from: John Prebble? Oor Wullie in the Sunday Post?

    ***

    "In British settlements from Dunedin to Bombay, for every Englishman who has worked himself up to wealth from small beginnings, you will find ten Scotsmen."

    Sir Charles Dilke - Greater Britain

    You might want to skim The Tobacco Lords: A Study of the Tobacco Merchants of Glasgow and their Trading Activities c. 1740-90, by Prof Tom Devine. Particularly interesting is the triangular trade that fed the North Atlantic slave trade. Nothing to do with the Scots (aka Virginia Dons), of course. Or,

    "...that in Jamaica in 1770 there were 100 African people called MacDonald, or that a quarter of the island's people were Scottish. There was a network of Argyll Campbells at least 100 strong in Jamaica too, concentrated on the west of the island, where the place names were nostalgic: Argyle, Glen Islay."

    Sauce: Jackie Kay on Scotland's role in the slave trade | Books | The Guardian
    For years, we were dictated to by a Tory government no one here wanted.
    And? The English are saddled with unelected Prime Minister (who, along with half the Labour Party, just happen to be Scottish) that nobody wants. Same rules. Moreover, the number of seats the Scots had in Parliament, between 1885 and 1995 was at least 71, typically 72, and as high as 74 in 1918 - way out of proportion to its population. To claim some historical injustice based exclusively on a decade of Thatcher (who was just as, if not more, unpopular in the North of England) shows just how shortsighted Scottish Nationalism really is. I recommend, Independent and Free: Scottish Politics and the Origins of the SNP, by Prof Richard Finlay, who contends that the resurgence of Scottish nationalism is largely down to the collapse of the British Empire. Nothing like leaving the party when the beer runs out, eh Blue?

    It has never been hard to tell the difference between Bluemonday with a grievance and a ray of sunshine. With apologies to PG Wodehouse...

    All the best.

  2. #22
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^What's your point? The Scots shouldn't have self-government because of their involvement in the slave trade? The Scots have been sold into slavery and they have been slave owners. Like almost every nation on earth at some point in history. How is any of this relevant?

    Thanks for the reading list but I'm good, ta. I'm friendly with policy makers and advisors. I prefer to hear it from the horse's mouth rather than a horse's arse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #23
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    And our issues are not "local", they are national.
    1.) What exactly are these "national" issues that are of such pressing importance that hundreds of years of inter-marriage and common culture are to be disregarded, particularly after devolution?

    2.) Why would Scottish residents be in a better position to pursue their "national" interests within an insignificant country isolated from international power politics, rather than within a constituent region (with disproportionate national influence) of a major world power?

    3.) Don't expect an independent Scotland governed by the SNP to be welcomed by many Americans of Scottish descent (including myself) after the release of the Lockerbie bomber-if that's their idea of "homecoming", I'd hate to see what their idea of "screwing the diaspora" is.

  4. #24
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    ^What's your point? The Scots shouldn't have self-government because of their involvement in the slave trade? The Scots have been sold into slavery and they have been slave owners. Like almost every nation on earth at some point in history. How is any of this relevant?
    Well if you present psuedo-history as real history, using your version to back up your dubious contentions (ie, the Scots are somehow "victims" of Empire, Thatcher, etc, when in fact they were instrumental in creating it), then the castle you have built sinks into the sand of your vacuous and erronious factoids.

    You say you mingle in high circles but cannot string anything more sophisticated than something a regular in The Horseshoe Bar in Glasgow would blurt out after one too many pints of lager. Maybe one of these high-flyers can help you out?

    You are a paper tiger; a horse's arse is too good for you and your supposedly well-connected ensemble of idiot friends happily deluding themselves that "independence within Europe" is anything other than a laughable contradiction.

    I hope you achieve your goal.

    My tax bill will be (significantly) lower. And yours will be (significantly) higher. If you have a job, that is.

    Good luck with your hobby.

    All the best, as always.

    Last edited by matmos; 10-12-2009 at 11:39 AM.

  5. #25
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Who voted for the BNP?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  6. #26
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    Well if you present psuedo-history as real history, using your version to back up your dubious contentions (ie, the Scots are somehow "victims" of Empire, Thatcher, etc, when in fact they were instrumental in creating it), then the castle you have built sinks into the sand of your vacuous and erronious factoids.

    You say you mingle in high circles but cannot string anything more sophisticated than something a regular in The Horseshoe Bar in Glasgow would blurt out after one too many pints of lager. Maybe one of these high-flyers can help you out?

    You are a paper tiger; a horse's arse is too good for you and your supposedly well-connected ensemble of idiot friends happily deluding themselves that
    "independence within Europe" is anything other than a laughable contradiction.

    I hope you achieve your goal.

    My tax bill will be (significantly) lower. And yours will be (significantly) higher. If you have a job, that is.

    Good luck with your hobby.

    All the best, as always.

    Jesus, what a schizophrenic post. That chip on your shoulder must really be weighing you down son. I haven't presented anything. I'm not interested in making a party political broadcast here. The only person I have to convince is myself and I can vote for the bloody Monster Raving Looney Party if I so choose. God bless democracy!

    If you want to start a thread on the pitfalls of devolution/an independent Scotland, go ahead with yourself. I'm sure everyone else will find it totally relevant and fascinating.

    As for being financially worse off, that's a price I'm willing to pay. Not everyone votes with their pocket. But as a business owner the SNP's policy on corporate taxation will probably favour me.

    Win, win!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #27
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    1.) What exactly are these "national" issues that are of such pressing importance that hundreds of years of inter-marriage and common culture are to be disregarded, particularly after devolution?

    2.) Why would Scottish residents be in a better position to pursue their "national" interests within an insignificant country isolated from international power politics, rather than within a constituent region (with disproportionate national influence) of a major world power?

    3.) Don't expect an independent Scotland governed by the SNP to be welcomed by many Americans of Scottish descent (including myself) after the release of the Lockerbie bomber-if that's their idea of "homecoming", I'd hate to see what their idea of "screwing the diaspora" is.
    1. "Common culture", what? True our culture isn't as rich as it might have been if the national language and customs hadn't been BANNED in the not too distant past. But to suggest that English and Scottish culture are synonymous is merely to express your ignorance of both.

    2. See Norway. Or Ireland.

    3. Who gives a shit? Are you a member of the electorate? Do you pay tax in this country? I applaud the decision. The message it sends ought to give you some idea of how important Anglo-American interests are to us. We'll take our chances in Europe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #28
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    1.) What exactly are these "national" issues that are of such pressing importance that hundreds of years of inter-marriage and common culture are to be disregarded, particularly after devolution?
    For one there's Defence Policy. The SNP has a policy of "neutrality" and is firmly "non-nuclear". And it won't be in Nato, although would be happy to let Nato troops use existing bases... And it wants to build aircraft carriers... You may want to stop yourself laughing at the military genius at the helm of these Noddies:With military thinkers like Angus Robertson, who needs enemies? - Telegraph

    Even the "pacifist" SNP's website is oblivious to the obvious contradiction: SNP concern over aircraft carrier contract | SNP - Scottish National Party ...and would like to continue building ships for the Royal Navy. Then again it is being built in Govan, which is the constituancy of the Deputy First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. But why would they be stupid enough to think the English Royal Navy would keep giving them defence contracts?; or indeed their new chums in Europe would not stop such flagrantly anti-competitive practices with existing laws.

    2.) Why would Scottish residents be in a better position to pursue their "national" interests within an insignificant country isolated from international power politics, rather than within a constituent region (with disproportionate national influence) of a major world power?
    Quite right. They wouldn't. But Bluemonday won't tell you why. She'll tell you to mind your business because you cannot vote in the UK election. Then she has the gaul to add "God Bless Democracy!" But please don't express a view on something you can't actually vote on.

    3.) Don't expect an independent Scotland governed by the SNP to be welcomed by many Americans of Scottish descent (including myself) after the release of the Lockerbie bomber-if that's their idea of "homecoming", I'd hate to see what their idea of "screwing the diaspora" is.
    The event you describe illustrates the level of sopistication these hillbillies operate at. Put the SNP's Mr Confused on TV and watch him witter on about "compassion", make a complete fool of himself in the ensuing Media Circus and the twit looks less like an international statesman than a rabbit in the headlights.

    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    Jesus, what a schizophrenic post. That chip on your shoulder must really be weighing you down son.
    Yeah, sweetheart. I'm allergic to talking bollocks, psuedo-history, quasi-romantic claptrap, tartan, kilts and fucking haggis. And the SNP.

    I haven't presented anything. I'm not interested in making a party political broadcast here. The only person I have to convince is myself and I can vote for the bloody Monster Raving Looney Party if I so choose. God bless democracy!
    Oddly laconic for someone that would argue with her shadow. Show some passion! Get involved.

    But you're correct: you can chose to vote for the Raving Loonies (aka the SNP) up there in your Scottish Parliament. Which is more than 90% of the UK taxpayers who funded it can do. God bless democracy, as you say.

    If you want to start a thread on the pitfalls of devolution/an independent Scotland, go ahead with yourself. I'm sure everyone else will find it totally relevant and fascinating.
    Complain to the management.

    As for being financially worse off, that's a price I'm willing to pay. Not everyone votes with their pocket. But as a business owner the SNP's policy on corporate taxation will probably favour me.
    I recommend you read these 3 sentences and spot the contradiction. But then the SNP are pretty expert at contradictions, especially at a policy level. Perhaps you've been going to too many pub lunches with your high-flying "policy maker" friends and some of your influence has rubbed off on them?

    Win, win!
    :rolli:

  9. #29
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluemonday View Post
    1. "Common culture", what?
    2. See Norway. Or Ireland.
    3. The message it sends ought to give you some idea of how important Anglo-American interests are to us. We'll take our chances in Europe.
    1.) Yes, common culture; that's what happens when you marry each other, move around within the same national boundaries, participate in the same national institutions, consume the same mass media, and so on, for several consecutive generations.

    2.) Neither of those countries has any great amount of influence, and what influence they have is largely dependent on being an active NATO participant (Norway) or maintaining close relations with an influential diaspora (Ireland).

    3.) If you wish to throw away a huge strategic asset through retarded anti-Americanism, that's certainly your prerogative. Also, if you think being a much smaller constituent region of the EU would somehow advance your interests better than a combination of disproportionate influence within one of the five permanent members of the security council and an advocacy network within the United States...well, I'm skeptical.

  10. #30
    Senior Member ed111's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Why would someone who implies personal support for libertarian and/or anti-socialist principles support a party that advocates massive amounts of government regulation (and the power to go along with it)? Besides, forcing industries into relocating to foreign countries with much higher levels of pollution per productive output seems more than a little counter-productive to me....
    I admit that I am not familiar with their policies in detail, and I would agree that there is probably quite a lot that is complete nonsense.

    My vote goes to them because it is a matter of principal and of high importance and the only way to get people to deal with these problems is via legislation.

    Doing nothing until it is too late would be catastrophic.

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