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  1. #161
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I find it extremely difficult - actually impossible - for me to have any sympathy for him. The man has the means for the best criminal defense money can buy.
    yes he does but weather anyone likes it or not, untill he is proven guilty he is innocent, certainly in both your country and my own.

  2. #162
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Allowing the victim to determine due penalty creates for a profound mismanagement of the justice system, as it personalizes punishment and removes objectivity from decision-making.
    Why is that a bad thing?

  3. #163
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    yes he does but weather anyone likes it or not, untill he is proven guilty he is innocent, certainly in both your country and my own.
    In a court of law (not public opinion), he is innocent until proven guilty. Duh. I don't understand your point.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #164
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Why is that a bad thing?
    How can you not see the problems with increasing subjectivity in the judicial process?

    Are there groups of people that believe they are treated unfairly right now? How would your proposal affect them? Please keep your response practical rather than idealistic.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #165
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Why is that a bad thing?
    Hmm.

    Well, without consistency, we don't have enforceable law.

  6. #166
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    How can you not see the problems with increasing subjectivity into the judicial process?

    Are there groups of people that believe they are treated unfairly right now? How would your proposal affect them? Please keep your response practical rather than idealistic.
    Quite simply, I think that ideas like "justice" and "fairness" are outdated concepts. We shouldn't have a "justice" system so much as a "solution" system. Essentially, we should act less in terms of retribution and imposing a fixed framework of rules, and more in terms of "how can we act in this situation to create the most benefit for everyone involved." Basically, we can have judges decide on a case by case basis what to do when someone acts against the interests of another individual. We could enforce it, it's just that enforcement would have to be subjective.

    The thing about justice is, it's really a human construct. It's not real, it's not something that physically exists. There's no universal law like gravity saying that consequences must eventually occur, etc. It's just an idea people have about how things should work. It being an idea and assumption, we can choose to operate upon a different idea. And I think perhaps we should.

    I don't know, maybe justice is kind of a weird T thing I just don't "get." It seems pointlessly impersonal and petty/exacting, honestly.

  7. #167
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Quite simply, I think that ideas like "justice" and "fairness" are outdated concepts. We shouldn't have a "justice" system so much as a "solution" system. Essentially, we should act less in terms of retribution and imposing a fixed framework of rules, and more in terms of "how can we act in this situation to create the most benefit for everyone involved." Basically, we can have judges decide on a case by case basis what to do when someone acts against the interests of another individual. We could enforce it, it's just that enforcement would have to be subjective.

    The thing about justice is, it's really a human construct. It's not real, it's not something that physically exists. There's no universal law like gravity saying that consequences must eventually occur, etc. It's just an idea people have about how things should work. It being an idea and assumption, we can choose to operate upon a different idea. And I think perhaps we should.

    I don't know, maybe justice is kind of a weird T thing I just don't "get." It seems pointlessly impersonal and petty/exacting, honestly.
    I asked for something practical, not idealistic. Can you try again?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #168
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Quite simply, I think that ideas like "justice" and "fairness" are outdated concepts. We shouldn't have a "justice" system so much as a "solution" system. Essentially, we should act less in terms of retribution and imposing a fixed framework of rules, and more in terms of "how can we act in this situation to create the most benefit for everyone involved." Basically, we can have judges decide on a case by case basis what to do when someone acts against the interests of another individual. We could enforce it, it's just that enforcement would have to be subjective.

    The thing about justice is, it's really a human construct. It's not real, it's not something that physically exists. There's no universal law like gravity saying that consequences must eventually occur, etc. It's just an idea people have about how things should work. It being an idea and assumption, we can choose to operate upon a different idea. And I think perhaps we should.

    I don't know, maybe justice is kind of a weird T thing I just don't "get." It seems pointlessly impersonal and petty/exacting, honestly.
    So what's the "solution" to child rape?



  9. #169
    Pose! Salt n' pepper's Avatar
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    ^ Eliminating all children.

  10. #170
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salt n' pepper View Post
    ^ Eliminating all children.
    I like the cut of your jib.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

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