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  1. #111
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    liberalism as in the mentality inherint to liberalism which is present here and more so in many European countries. Same mindset, no matter what it's called. Thank you for clarifying and validating of my point.
    Prove it.

  2. #112
    Senior Member matmos's Avatar
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    The charges against Polanski are one issue; the circumstances of his detention at Zurich airport are another.

    Prosecutions here in the UK are pursued if they are deemed to be in the public interest.

    The question is, irrespective of the veracity of the allegations, whose interests are being served by Polanski's detention?

    Whether he's guilty or not at this point seems rather irrelevant.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by bananatrombones View Post
    The charges against Polanski are one issue; the circumstances of his detention at Zurich airport are another.

    Prosecutions here in the UK are pursued if they are deemed to be in the public interest.

    The question is, irrespective of the veracity of the allegations, whose interests are being served by Polanski's detention?

    Whether he's guilty or not at this point seems rather irrelevant.
    Just letting Obama know we'll get him sooner or later too!

  4. #114
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I believe that would be the interests of the authorities in emphasizing that "You can run, but you cannot hide."

  5. #115
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    No one is above the law. He ran from his punishment, did anyone honestly expect anything less?

  6. #116
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Prove it.
    What do you mean -- like just throwing out cause and effect aren't good enough? Like there actually has to be an argument connecting them?

    Off-topic but in the interest of a purely semantic discussion, a simplistic distinction. There are many flavors of liberals and liberalism, of course:

    Liberal in the American sense refers to:
    1. Economic sphere: government intervention to correct market failures
    2. Social sphere: Besides a stress on basic individual rights and a separation of church and state, government intervention in favor of traditionally disadvantaged groups.

    Liberal in the European sense:
    1. Economic sphere: less government intervention in economic affairs
    2. Social sphere: less government intervention in social sphere. Individuals pick what's best for themselves.

    Liberals in the European sense (Liberal Democrats in Britain, for example) are closer to libertarians in the United States.

  7. #117
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    What do you mean -- like just throwing out cause and effect aren't good enough? Like there actually has to be an argument connecting them?

    Off-topic but in the interest of a purely semantic discussion, a simplistic distinction. There are many flavors of liberals and liberalism, of course:

    Liberal in the American sense refers to:
    1. Economic sphere: government intervention to correct market failures
    2. Social sphere: Besides a stress on basic individual rights and a separation of church and state, government intervention in favor of traditionally disadvantaged groups.

    Liberal in the European sense:
    1. Economic sphere: less government intervention in economic affairs
    2. Social sphere: less government intervention in social sphere. Individuals pick what's best for themselves.

    Liberals in the European sense (Liberal Democrats in Britain, for example) are closer to libertarians in the United States.
    Honestly, given the historical differences between the US and Europe, the conservative/liberal dialectic is practically useless in comparative politics.

    European conservatives are in favor of the power of hereditary elites. European liberals are in favor of the power of the bourgeoisie. European socialists are in favor of the power of the general populace. European hard-rightists (i.e. fascists) are in favor of the power of the bureaucracy, buttressed by the power of the bourgeoisie.

    We have such distinctions in the US, but they are jammed within the confines of the two-party system, which is inevitable in our electoral structure due to Duverger's law.

  8. #118
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Do you know what I find hilarious? Woody Allen throwing his support behind Roman Polanski.
    The one who buggers a fire burns his penis
    -anonymous graffiti in the basilica at Pompeii

  9. #119
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Honestly, given the historical differences between the US and Europe, the conservative/liberal dialectic is practically useless in comparative politics.
    I hope it was clear that I think the liberal/conservative argument in this context is a poor one. Little that connects cause with effect. Having said that, I don't think the original argument made by Risen, if there was one, was a comparative one. He was making an argument based purely on how the terms are understood in American politics.

    *Not sure why I find the need to clarify his argument*

    European conservatives are in favor of the power of hereditary elites. European liberals are in favor of the power of the bourgeoisie. European socialists are in favor of the power of the general populace. European hard-rightists (i.e. fascists) are in favor of the power of the bureaucracy, buttressed by the power of the bourgeoisie.

    We have such distinctions in the US, but they are jammed within the confines of the two-party system, which is inevitable in our electoral structure due to Duverger's law.
    The above is yet another way of looking at the European liberal/conservative divide. You look at the intersection of ideology and class, I'm focused more on parties commonly seen across Europe and their political platforms. They are related, of course but not quite the same. I think it would be more accurate to connect the European socialists with the working class who form most of their electoral base. I'm not sure why the fascists would be connected to the bureaucracy except for their support for authoritarianism. Fascists or the radical right finds most of its support in unemployed working class folks and xenophobes.

    The distinctions exist here as well, whether they are translated into governing parties or not (due to the plurality system) here.
    The categorization you used above:
    European Socialists = Democrats
    European Conservatives = Republicans
    European Liberals = Libertarians
    European Greens = the same here
    The party that does get squished into the larger ones here is the radical right which is the far right base of the Republican party.

  10. #120
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    European hard-rightists (i.e. fascists) are in favor of the power of the bureaucracy, buttressed by the power of the bourgeoisie.
    According to this evaluation of European political ideology, the European Union would constitute a fascist enterprise.

    Incidentally, every major European party that seeks power is in favor of empowering the "general populace" through a minimum-winning coalition; the socialists, problematic philosophical baggage from their pasts notwithstanding, simply seek to ensure that they and (their) trade unions wield as much power as possible within a corporatist framework.

    I've always found it quite funny that the European parties I most identified with usually referred to themselves as "liberal" and/or "democrat".

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