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  1. #61
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    20 more minutes of math classes a day.

    now, bridges stop crumbling, space shuttles stop blowing up, instant replays work better, financial meltdowns are more avoidable, DMV lines are shorter, everyone is happy

    just deal with it.
    But it's already two and a half hours long!
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  2. #62
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    20 more minutes of math classes a day.

    now, bridges stop crumbling, space shuttles stop blowing up, instant replays work better, financial meltdowns are more avoidable, DMV lines are shorter, everyone is happy

    just deal with it.
    Math is great, but I'd rather there be a required course (or four) on personal finance. I don't want to have to bail people out of their stupidity again...wishful thinking, I know.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #63
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    But it's already two and a half hours long!

    well, sounds like ur taking like two ap classes in math and statistics or something?? which is a good thing. but the average time devoted to math in US high schools is 45 minutes total.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Math is great, but I'd rather there be a required course (or four) on personal finance. I don't want to have to bail people out of their stupidity again...wishful thinking, I know.
    Yeah. People always leave out one party that is guilty too though. the lawyers. They made CDO's and mortgages too complicated to understand too. But definitely lot of irresponsibility on normal people too, as well as the bankers and credit agencies, regulators, etc....

  4. #64
    your resident asshole
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Do Republicans really think there's any other kind?
    What does this have anything to do with Republicans? I, and many people enjoy the many days I get off of school. I hate that hell-hole.

  5. #65
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I think its more likely that wealthy parents (or parents in academia, etc.) simply socialize their children (often without even trying) into the habits and interests that are conducive to educational achievement. These same habits and interests are absent from many poorer student's lives outside of school. In short, its culture/values/upbringing rather than economic advantage-the latter only plays an indirect role due to the elimination of structural poverty combined with economically-segregated housing developments (resulting in less diverse parenting influences).
    And that they have the time to stay on their backsides about the grades. Poor people aren't lazy - having to work through college disabused me of that notion pretty quickly. However, they don't have time to pay attention to the kids if they're trying to make ends meet, and summer vacation becomes yet another crisis, because what the hell are the kids going to do all day, since a babysitter is unaffordable and they'll get into trouble out on the street. Meanwhile, during the school year, they're just too damn tired after working their second shift to deal with the reports of bad grades coming from the school - a quick shouting match to show displeasure, and hopefully things will improve afterwards, since there's just no time to look any farther into it.

    This is what is meant by systematic poverty. There's no time to teach kids strategies for success or supervise on more than a basic level, so they go on to not succeed in school or get into legal trouble, which leads to limited earning opportunities and consequently the same time crunch in the next generation. Meanwhile, the wealthier kids, whose parents have much more time for intervention due to a lesser need to work given their higher incomes, pull ahead.

  6. #66
    Theta Male Julius_Van_Der_Beak's Avatar
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    The way this is described in the the thread title is misleading. I don't really see a huge problem if the breaks are just split up. And if this helps retention better, why not do it?

    I do think, however, that just increasing the hours is not enough. I think it would be better to change how or when things are being taught. Extra hours would be a good idea if the option for enrichment or extracurriculars was included in there somewhere.

    I think somebody made an interesting point earlier about the gap in hours between the work day and the school day.

  7. #67
    Senior Member Kyrielle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Math is great, but I'd rather there be a required course (or four) on personal finance. I don't want to have to bail people out of their stupidity again...wishful thinking, I know.
    Yes! Definitely. The "business" course (just one) I took in highschool, only barely scratched the surface of the business side of life. I would have prefered a two or three in-depth courses that covered as much of the minutia as possible. Like, how to get health and auto insurance and what most of the terms in the plans usually mean. The best ways to invest money and practical exercises that involve doing so. Building a monthly budget.

    Actually, a really cool part of a course (or a course on its own) would involve a giant exercise in managing personal finances. At the beginning of the class, you choose your occupation and pick the low end of the salary range. (Basically it has to be an occupation you could do straight out of highschool (or college if you planned to go).) Then, you form a budget spreadsheet in Excel or something. The budget would have to be as detailed as possible and included everything that you would be spending money on. After that, you'd start looking for health insurance. Then a place to live. Then you'd set up your utilities. Factor in a car and all the things that go with it.

    Once everything was setup, then you would draw lots everyday to determine what activities/pitfalls/expendatures would happen that day in class. And at the end of every week (perhaps the "time scale" would be accelerated to incorporate an entire year of living expenses in one course) you'd insert your expenses into the budget and adjust finances accordingly.

    This way, you're effectively pretend-living out what it would be like to pay bills, receive a regular pay check, manage and counter pitfalls and disasters, and generally keep yourself "in the black" each month. At least then, by the end of the course, you would, hopefully, have an understanding of how to manage your money in real life situations.
    "I took the one less traveled by,
    And that has made all the difference."

    Robert Frost

  8. #68
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    And that they have the time to stay on their backsides about the grades. Poor people aren't lazy - having to work through college disabused me of that notion pretty quickly. However, they don't have time to pay attention to the kids if they're trying to make ends meet, and summer vacation becomes yet another crisis, because what the hell are the kids going to do all day, since a babysitter is unaffordable and they'll get into trouble out on the street. Meanwhile, during the school year, they're just too damn tired after working their second shift to deal with the reports of bad grades coming from the school - a quick shouting match to show displeasure, and hopefully things will improve afterwards, since there's just no time to look any farther into it.

    This is what is meant by systematic poverty. There's no time to teach kids strategies for success or supervise on more than a basic level, so they go on to not succeed in school or get into legal trouble, which leads to limited earning opportunities and consequently the same time crunch in the next generation. Meanwhile, the wealthier kids, whose parents have much more time for intervention due to a lesser need to work given their higher incomes, pull ahead.
    How are the conditions you mentioned different within localities suffering from structural poverty? When economic conditions within such localities improve, some individuals and families move out of poverty, while others do not*, despite being at roughly the same economic level beforehand. The upwardly-mobile individuals/families managed to teach/learn the values/habits conducive to academic success/gainful employment despite working more than ten hours every day. Also, "laziness" per se has little to do with it; the habituated capacity to dig a ditch for ten hours requires different kinds of childhood preparation than the capacity to do engineering work for ten hours; neither person is any more "lazy" than the other, its just that one person was encouraged to develop abstract skills, postpone gratification, and work through mental (and not just physical) fatigue and frustration. Poorer families usually don't lack the time to instill these traits in children, they lack the training-especially since most such training is typically learned or taught through accidental rather than deliberate socialization, through the example of their parents and members of their immediate community.

    *though the latter does typically have better living conditions and prospects under conditions of relative poverty.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 09-29-2009 at 02:49 PM. Reason: spelling; wrong word

  9. #69
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    How are the conditions you mentioned different within localities suffering from structural poverty? When economic conditions within such localities improve, some individuals and families move out of poverty, while others do not*, despite being at roughly the same economic level beforehand. The upwardly-mobile individuals/families managed to teach/learn the values/habits conducive to academic success/gainful employment despite working more than ten hours every day. Also, "laziness" per se has little to do with it; the habituated capacity to dig a ditch for ten hours requires different kinds of childhood preparation than the capacity to do engineering work for ten hours; neither person is any more "lazy" than the other, its just that one person was encouraged to develop abstract skills, postpone gratification, and work through mental (and not just physical) fatigue and frustration. Poorer families usually don't lack the time to instill these traits in children, they lack the training-especially since most such training is typically learned or taught through accidental rather than deliberate socialization, through the example of their parents and members of their immediate community.

    *though the former does typically have better living conditions and prospects under conditions of relative poverty.
    Be careful, you're sounding a bit xNxJ-chauvinistic there.

    Mobility is the key. The US has always been different from most other countries in the ability of people to move wherever the economic situation is better. It's rare where the situation just improves out of nowhere; other than Pennsylvania during its initial oil boom, most other places were relatively unpopulated until their particular resource and economic booms.

    This is irrelevant nowadays, as most of our resources are known if not already exploited. Consequently, populations are relatively stagnant - and yes, I know the Sunbelt is growing, but that has very little to do with any sort of economic expansion; rather, it was debt-fueled speculation. That's why the economy got as crappy as it is now - people figured they could move to $400k houses in Phoenix without asking why the hell it made any sense to live in the desert whatsoever when there weren't any resources there. Once they stop making money (which is those resources and the utility added to them), defaults inevitably follow.

    Hard work and creativity are not the sole province of the wealthy - there are plenty of poor folks who improvise things on levels of ingenuity that are astounding. Hell, the drug trade alone requires a ton of abstract thought, since you're dealing with both business acumen, an understanding of the most brutal nature of human interaction, not to mention an intimate relationship with the ins and outs of American law. Isn't "hustling" simply working harder than the other guy?

  10. #70
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    I think the biggest question would be, though, who is going to pay for all of this.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

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