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  1. #111
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    ^ Are you familiar with Obama's educational policy positions?
    Nope. I have not looked at it in depth.

    Surely you don't believe extending the school day is the only reform he plans to make.
    I at least hope not...

    We all agree that many educational reforms need to happen in order to catch this country up to global standards--that's not the point here, though.

    I want to know why extending the school day specifically is a bad idea?
    Why extend the school days? What's to be accomplished in a few additional hours a day? If anything, tweak the way the summer break system works, but I promise, kids are stir-crazy enough with the current hours. Those that WANT to learn can achieve academic success just fine going to school for 8 hours a day with a good curriculum and solid teachers. If a parent or a child wants go to tutoring, or classes offered after normal school hours, I think that should be offered and encouraged, but not mandatory. I just don't see how it's necessary... "Other countries are doing it" is not a legitimate reason.

    Kids in the U.S. spend more hours in school (1,146 instructional hours per year) than do kids in the Asian countries that persistently outscore the U.S. on math and science tests — Singapore (903), Taiwan (1,050), Japan (1,005) and Hong Kong (1,013). That is despite the fact that Taiwan, Japan and Hong Kong have longer school years (190 to 201 days) than does the U.S. (180 days).

  2. #112
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    Um, I guess me? And they let you check stuff out, in case you didn't know.

    I think you have completely destroyed your entire argument with that one sentence. If our culture thinks learning is weird (as it does), we are forever doomed.
    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    What?
    Your Fi is showing.

    It's not the learning that is weird, it's the contra-social behavior associated with it. Like it or not, most other people care about what others think of them. Camping out in the library by yourself reading a book, per se not a social behavior, is going to be deemed as strange, since you're rejecting social interaction for personal pleasure. Fe doesn't like that sort of thing at all.

    Remember - Fi relatively unencumbered by Si traditionalism is a really rare thing. Most people don't think this way. Consequently, when making policy decisions, we can't just expect people to go to the library - that just smacks of "boot-strap" cynicism.

  3. #113
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Because faster graduation is not necessarily everyone's priority. There's a certain frame of mind that values faster graduation above all else.
    Well, what frame of mind is that? I do admit, it sounds like a good idea to graduate faster, because... well, that means you have more time to figure out what you want to do after high school, right? Or get started with college sooner. At least, that's the first thing that comes to mind.
    If anything, I think it might create more high school drop-outs.
    Really? Why would anyone be crazy enough to drop out of high school when it's barely possible to get a job WITH a high school diploma?

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Your Fi is showing.

    It's not the learning that is weird, it's the contra-social behavior associated with it. Like it or not, most other people care about what others think of them. Camping out in the library by yourself reading a book, per se not a social behavior, is going to be deemed as strange, since you're rejecting social interaction for personal pleasure. Fe doesn't like that sort of thing at all.

    Remember - Fi relatively unencumbered by Si traditionalism is a really rare thing. Most people don't think this way. Consequently, when making policy decisions, we can't just expect people to go to the library - that just smacks of "boot-strap" cynicism.
    Actually I think that the point that both of us were making is that PARENTS ABOVE ALL influence education the most. Fe would like being in the library just fine if that's what his or her family does, and what his or her friends are doing.

    I honestly don't know what this has to do with Fe. Fe isn't Si, and thereby is tied more to interrelational values as opposed to dominant cultural norms.
    For the record, when I was in high school in the 9th and 10th grade my friends hung out at the library, and we weren't SJ overacheivers by any stretch of the imagination. I would guess that most of my friends were either NFs or SPs, and we were as a whole considered the artsy, intelligent but rebellious type.

    Extending the school day would actually drive not only xNFPs but all SPs and probably even ENTPs crazy. Choosing not to extend the school day has nothing to do with "boot strap cynicism."

  5. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, what frame of mind is that? I do admit, it sounds like a good idea to graduate faster, because... well, that means you have more time to figure out what you want to do after high school, right? Or get started with college sooner. At least, that's the first thing that comes to mind.
    That certainly applies to many Js, I think.

    Not all people are that goal-focused. Some people will look at it in terms of how it's going to affect the quality of their daily lives, not the end goal of graduating faster.


    Really? Why would anyone be crazy enough to drop out of high school when it's barely possible to get a job WITH a high school diploma?
    Not crazy. Immature. Remember: teenagers often don't have the maturity yet to see how their decisions now could fuck up their future. That's fairly self-evident. And not all parents see the world in those terms, either, particularly if they are working class and perform some sort of "hands on" trade themselves. This might be a more predominant occurance in the South or small mid-Western regions of the country. But still.

    Also, I read (and partially observed) that lots of SPs do poorly, or at least are miserable, in a traditional school system. Piling more of that on them each day by extending the school day when Se is telling them to live in the here and now, or play sports, or whatever, is going to make them more likely to get totally frustrated and leave.

  6. #116
    Senior Member Gewitter27's Avatar
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    I'll get some Potato Guns.
    Whole potatoes fired at you hurt. Especially if they are moving quickly.

    I 96% N 93% T 75% P 63% 5w4 sp/sx/so ILI
    Ti>Ne>Te>Ni>Si>Fi>Se>Fe
    I'm interested in what you percieve me to be. Johari/Nohari

  7. #117
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    To those children who would have to take a smaller summer vacation.


  8. #118
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Actually I think that the point that both of us were making is that PARENTS ABOVE ALL influence education the most. Fe would like being in the library just fine if that's what his or her family does, and what his or her friends are doing.

    I honestly don't know what this has to do with Fe. Fe isn't Si, and thereby is tied more to interrelational values as opposed to dominant cultural norms.
    For the record, when I was in high school in the 9th and 10th grade my friends hung out at the library, and we weren't SJ overacheivers by any stretch of the imagination. I would guess that most of my friends were either NFs or SPs, and we were as a whole considered the artsy, intelligent but rebellious type.

    Extending the school day would actually drive not only xNFPs but all SPs and probably even ENTPs crazy. Choosing not to extend the school day has nothing to do with "boot strap cynicism."
    Fe = uphold the social system. That is, by doing pro-social activities. As in, not keeping to yourself if you don't have to. Fe sees someone willingly going to the library and wondering why they'd rather be holed up in a book when it's a beautiful day outside and everyone can hang out together. Wondering why that person doesn't want to talk and share things with each other. It's not just "doing what everyone else is doing", which seems to be a common characterization, but rather joining together with everyone else.

    SPs wouldn't mind more time at school, provided school was giving something for them to do. My brother, xSxP that he is, couldn't stand school until he was able to start on auto tech and get his hands dirty. After that, he didn't mind staying after hours one bit. I hated school out of principle, but really didn't mind being there, as it was the greatest repository of information available in the pre-Internet era. I'd be more bored at home because there wasn't anything new there.

  9. #119
    Senior Member paintmuffin's Avatar
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    Just read through this whole thread.
    I agree with the other ENTPs.
    A colleague of the great scientist James Watson remarked that Watson was always “lounging around, arguing about problems instead of doing experiments.” He concluded that “There is more than one way of doing good science.”
    It was Watson’s form of idleness, the scientist went on to say, that allowed him to solve “the greatest of all biological problems: the discovery of the structure of DNA.” It's a point worth remembering in a society overly concerned with efficiency.

  10. #120
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    More hours does not equate to more learning. Proper application of teaching, however, DOES.

    Additional funding and training, as well as more useful forms of courses, and especially teaching people in smaller groups based on their style of learning,w ould be FAR more effective...

    Traditional schools are great for some kids, others... get almost nothing out of it. I kinda enjoyed school, but it wasn't like ZOMG YAY SKUUL! *Dance* or anything like that, it was more just kinda vaguely interesting, and if there were topics I wanted to learn about that were presented well, I fully enjoyed it and did very well in the class. The ones that were... less well taught, and just blind memorization of crap I don't care about? Yeah those didn't really impress me any. And considering longer days would most likely lead to more of the latter, than the former, I don't see how this would help any.

    In any case, I think the quality of schooling needs to be increased, not the quantity. Increasing hours spent, especially at younger ages, will do pretty much nil to help; kids don't focus nearly as well for long periods as adults do. Their internal clocks are different, etc. It's crap like expecting teens to wake up early in the morning, or a 5 year old to hold their bladder until lunch break... people have got to stop trying to force adult beliefs and such upon those whom they just don't apply to.

    If we're going to do THIS just because 'everyone else is doing it', can we also drop the work day to 35 hours like the rest of the world? I wouldn't mind 7 hour days instead of 8's, and still get paid the same.

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