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  1. #11
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    What do you call Enron?
    A company whose latter-administrative sham lasted less than a decade.

  2. #12
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Alright, I was feeling bad for being so skeptical, and "close minded" as my family often calls me, so it's nice to hear that the government is probably too disorganized to get me. Let's keep it that way.
    I didn't mean to imply that the government is too disorganised to get you, since the government is quite capable to getting you in a haphazard and disorganised way. The point, is that government isn't organised by a conscious planner, but by the often conflicting incentives of millions of people, from presidents, politicians, voters, columnists, businessmen, etc.

    There is little or no chance, that among these many individuals, whose success will often only come at the failure or oppression of others, that they could organise toward a common goal. In that, Machiavelli was right, the game of politics is basically about rewarding your supporters at the expense of your opposition, or to lose power.

    In other words, the emergent consequence of each individual responding to his or her own incentives is something that nobody intends. The government will try and screw you over, it'll just do it in a disorganised, haphazard, inefficient way. In fact, we can thank God that government is so inefficient, or we would likely not have any freedom at all.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  3. #13
    Senior Member xNFJiminy's Avatar
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    I check out some of those theories too. I've always had this sense that I really have no reason to make the same assumptions most seem to make, because there is a million possible explanations for everything we see around us, and it just doesn't make logical sense for us to have any firm belief about what anything means, let alone all 'happen' to agree on the same belief without any real evidence other than the fact that most assumed authorities tell us to. It was always a fascination of mine that I had no actual evidence that the image of the man on the screen who we're told is Prime Minister is even really the one making decisions, yet somehow it was so inevitable for me to have to accept it with everyone else, and everyone else was in the same position...

    Now I think I was on to something as a child. Children seem to be much more logical than adults, in general.

  4. #14
    Senior Member xNFJiminy's Avatar
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    Here's a page of interesting quotes from various political figures: Still Don't Believe In The New World Order?

    British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli, 1876 - "The governments of the present day have to deal not merely with other governments, with emperors, kings and ministers, but also with the secret societies which have everywhere their unscrupulous agents, and can at the last moment upset all the governments' plans."

    Justice Felix Frankfurter, U.S. Supreme Court - "The real rulers in Washington are invisible and exercise their power from behind the scenes."

    Woodrow Wilson, The New Freedom (1913) - "Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the Field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

    Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976 - "The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control.... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent."

    David Rockefeller, 1991 - "We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto-determination practiced in past centuries."

  5. #15
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Well, if they said it, it must be true.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  6. #16
    Senior Member developer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nocturne View Post
    I barely consider those in government competent enough to organise a piss up in a brewery, nevermind anything on that list.
    Occam would be proud of you !

  7. #17
    Senior Member xNFJiminy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    Well, if they said it, it must be true.
    I just said they were interesting. Which I stand by.

    I don't watch the news any more, not just because there's no more reason to believe anything on there than there is to believe claims on the Internet, but because their version is always infinitely more boring. :zzz:

  8. #18
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by developer View Post
    Occam would be proud of you !

    Sadly, I think it ignores the reality that the simple explanation is often a conspiracy.

    I think anyone who has worked in a corporation has seen some of the stuff that happens behind closed doors. The "unlawful" bit of conspiracy doesn't always apply, making it... well, not a conspiracy... but it certain carries the will of a group. It's not some sort of disorganised group fighting it out internally, backstabbing. Things do get done and from the outside it may seem like chance or "moving a mountain"... but it was willful and premeditated.

    Same thing goes for governments. The concept that they are simple and disorganised is ridiculous - not just for the failures that we know about, but those that worked and we don't even know about.

    Simple example for the US is the first Iraq war, or almost any propoganda campaign. It seems surreal that you could convince 300 million people, at least in majority, without a single piece of factual evidence being presented, yet a small group from Kuwait managed to do it. It was repeated by a small group in the current administration. People don't just study psychology and group behaviour for fun...

    There is a protective dissonance around these kinds of things... a need to believe that it doesn't happen that way. But most legislation is created by a small group of people attempting to harm competition or protect themselves. Groups work on public opinion all the time... I'm overly familiar with one that was perpetuated by lawyers for the sole reason of creating more class action lawsuits, including hiring false experts, adding plots to hollywood and so forth.

    Simple is not always "simple".

    A group with a will can do incredible things that seem impossible. NWO is just as likely as any of the other smaller versions. Will is will and it is the simplest explanation.

    It's entirely different than "aliens" and "mind control"...

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I live with a whole family full of conspiracy theorists. They read every little conspiracy article on the internet and pile it all away. If you talk to one of them you will hear a lot of interesting beliefs.

    1. Ancient royal bloodlines descending from the beginning of civilization continue to control the world through secret organizations like the Free Masons and Illuminati.
    2. Earth has a secret space fleet and we are currently engaging in trade with extra terrestrials.
    3. The Real ID is a ploy to put chips in every human being so that the government can track our every move and purchase.
    4. Cell phone towers are being used at certain frequencies to alter human consciousness.
    5. Planes are spraying harmful barium and aluminum particles in the air in chem trails in order to protect us from the spread of fallout from a nuclear explosion that the government is planning to perpetrate and blame on Iran.
    6. AIDs was manufactured as a means of controlling the African and gay population.

    I am incredibly skeptical of this craziness, but my family holds to their convictions so strongly that I can't close my mind completely to the ideas. So how likely is it that big brother is out to get us? Is there any way to talk a person out of a conspiracy theory once they have one?
    Nutters. My advice: run.

  10. #20
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I live with a whole family full of conspiracy theorists. ...
    I currently am working with a theory that INxPs tend to be conspiracy theorists. Can you confirm that?

    Oh.

    1- Don't believe any of it.
    2- I feel your pain.

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