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  1. #11
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    The main thing I can say in defense of censorship is that there is more and more of a case for it in our increasingly media saturated world. Choosing to ignore things is becoming almost impossible.

    Ultimately, my stance on censorship is the same as my stance on many hot button issues: It makes little difference because I see no good answers yet and have no faith in human beings.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  2. #12
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EnFpFer View Post
    I'm not pro-censorship, in general.
    I'm like CC, if I don't want to see something, I turn my head, log off, or walk away.
    I'm not into telling adults what they should be into, or what they "outta be" talking about.

    As far as children go, that's a more difficult situation. I have no desire to expose my child to adult themes for which he has no current application. I don't talk to him about sex or religion, unless he presents a question to me. I also don't want anyone else doing it either. If he ask me a question, I assume the issue is already at hand, and I respond as honestly as I can.
    It sounds like you are a good parent.

    I can understand how censors what to protect children from bad parents. The only problem is when censorship is not narrowly tailored to meet a substantial interest. That means it may cross good parents belief systems as well when "equal enforcement" is applied.
    Also when legislation and enforcement violates the rights of the individual adult. For example ban all net porn because a kid might see it? Ban all pictures of WWII Nazis because a kid might see it?

    Even those censorships that apply directly to kids what will the next generation be like without freedoms to make up their mind on controversial issues (i.e. Make all school kids were uniforms, so none of them dress gangsta? etc...Ban all mention of God in schools because it might cause conflict?)

  3. #13
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    The main thing I can say in defense of censorship is that there is more and more of a case for it in our increasingly media saturated world. Choosing to ignore things is becoming almost impossible.

    Ultimately, my stance on censorship is the same as my stance on many hot button issues: It makes little difference because I see no good answers yet and have no faith in human beings.
    Thank you. This is a valid point.

    There are instances when the abundance of media makes it difficult to focus on what we want to find. In effect the saturation of media creates a sense of censorship in itself. Like going through your email getting a lot of...ahem...spam.

    But if nobody is to be trusted do we trust having our options limited by some high and migty censors, and who is watching/censoring the censors?

  4. #14
    Senior Member Gewitter27's Avatar
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    I'm very firmly opposed to censorship. If we left all the stuff we thought was 'inappropriate' in, then it would become normal. As it is, making a hooplah about it only makes the problem worse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Ultimately, my stance on censorship is the same as my stance on many hot button issues: It makes little difference because I see no good answers yet and have no faith in human beings.
    I agree, except I'd say there are sometimes good answers and it often DOES make a difference.
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  5. #15
    Don't Judge Me! Haphazard's Avatar
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    Umm, I don't really think child pornography should be in the debate.

    Illegalizing child pornography is not an issue of censorship but rather an issue of protecting the children from being exploited sexually.

    Illegalizing pornography in general is an issue of censorship because presumably, these adults involved can choose for themselves whether they want to be exploited sexually or not.
    -Carefully taking sips from the Fire Hose of Knowledge

  6. #16
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    This is an interesting post on another thread as to sexual (normal adult version) censorship and MBII types:

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Whether it's an SJ's outrage at experiencing something they're unfamiliar with, or an NF's delicate sensibilities being violated, the result is the same: both are obscene.

  7. #17
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Umm, I don't really think child pornography should be in the debate.

    Illegalizing child pornography is not an issue of censorship but rather an issue of protecting the children from being exploited sexually.

    Illegalizing pornography in general is an issue of censorship because presumably, these adults involved can choose for themselves whether they want to be exploited sexually or not.
    Naturally under the U.S. contitution child porn gets no protection as opposed to general non obscenity porn, also the U.S. Supreme Court has come up with some narrowly tailored exception to allow the legislation of free spech

    Miller test for obscenity (pretty difficult standard to meet)

    regulation of commercial speech such as advertising

    Other limitations on free speech often balance rights to free speech and other rights, such as property rights for authors and inventors (copyright)

    interests in "fair" political campaigns (Campaign finance laws)

    protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons (restrictions on Hate speech or fighting words)

    or the use of untruths to harm others (slander)

    I find these if they are "narrowly tailored" to fit a "significant" interest (except commercial speech/adds etc. where a more generl intent standard is sufficient) is reasonable.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Gewitter27's Avatar
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    Pornography is a touchy issue, but it should be legal. I agree with Haphazard in the Child Porn debate: It is illegal for those underage to have sex anyway, and forcing them to is infringing the law in the first place.
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  9. #19
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Umm, I don't really think child pornography should be in the debate.

    Illegalizing child pornography is not an issue of censorship but rather an issue of protecting the children from being exploited sexually.

    Illegalizing pornography in general is an issue of censorship because presumably, these adults involved can choose for themselves whether they want to be exploited sexually or not.
    Actually I disagree with this; I agree that ACTUAL child pornography SHOULD be illegal because to make it yeu had to abuse someone's rights to start with.

    However, there's alot of things that are NOT child pornography that are treated identically. Consider a stick figure with an extra line between the legs for a dick, and then labeling it "Bob: age 7" next to the picture.

    Under the current legislation, this is treated identical as if yeu had physical pictures of a real, living breathing child who was abused sexually.

    Do we see just a tiiiiiiiiiny little dispairity here? Well we should.

    One of these is based solely upon the abuse of a minor. The other is just censorship of an idea.

    Let's take it a step further, let's state that we can now create lifelike virtual reality programs to let yeu enjoy anything yeur mind can desire... would yeu censor a child porn program, which prevents the need to actually harm 'real' children, or would yeu consider the end goal of saving children from being abused to allow it to be used?

    The strict censors would insist upon banning the concept in every way shape or form for fear of making it 'normal' to view such... except that generally, if yeu're going to be a pedophile, yeu're going to do so whether it's considered wrong or not, and people don't get 'enticed' into it, they're generally that way from the start.

    I'd rather keep them preoccupied away from doing something actually dangerous. If they can be sated with fantasy over reality, then all the better for them.


    The second part of pornography in general though... well yeah. I mean if it's a consenting adult, and they think it's worth the monies, then go for it, it's their body and their choice.

    People are allowed to view stuff that goes with THEIR morals. It's not the right of a nation to enforce THOUGHT. Yeu can hate someone as much as yeu want, as long as yeu don't act on it. Yeu can lust all yeu want, as long as yeu don't force yeurself on someone else; if yeu want to blow 16 hours a day masturbating in yeur basement to internet porn then... alright yeah that's admittedly kinda creepy, and I think we're way past the 'sin' of lust at this point, but hei, if it keeps yeu happy and away from raping someone, then go for it.

    Noone has any right to claim that yeu don't have the capacity to decide for yeurself whot yeur own values are. Since then they're just stating that THEIR morals are superior to yeurs. And yeu know very well that these people won't accept the reverse argument, regardless of the evidence presented to them.

  10. #20
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Justice Hugo Black said there should be absolutely no restriction on speech most jurists, along with most U.S. citizens, agree with Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., who felt that the Constitution allows some restrictions on speech under certain circumstances. I tend to be a kind conservative on the child porn issue because I think that it is not just the children on the other end of the camera who get harmed. From what I have read I feel there is a "secondary effect" on the viewers of this material where it could incite bad behavior. It is to the point where I think censorship of naked "anime" cartoon images of prepubescent should be made illegal (apparently the U.S. Supreme Court disagrees 5-4 with me on this issue). That being said, stick figures or baby pictures of yourself in the bathtub seem harmless and enforcers who overreact and are not able to apply some common sense discretion…they are part of the problem and why censorship generally is bad.
    In general I also think there is a hierarchy on what should be the most protected speech. In the U.S. it is something like religion/politics get the highest followed by art/philosophy/science/parody [not sure on the specifics but you get the idea].

    Similarly if an item addresses Typology in some direct and/or some meaningful manner, even if it was offensive, wouldn’t it be reasonable should get extra protection here?

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