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  1. #51
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Then why does the Catholic church (as opposed to other Christian denominations) get all the media coverage for it? That seems kind of strange.
    If we go by the research done by Philip Jenkins(noted for his academic studies into religious sociology and history), several factors are involved. Among them: the changing attitudes of the media itself towards churches, combined with the long history of anti-Catholicism within America at least, along with a growing social concern over child molestation in general, along with the recent explosion of cases popping up which have given it more publicity than before. Then added the internal politics within the Church where many dissenters who are in favor of married priests as well as the ordination of women have seized upon this as a way for advancing their agenda.

    Given the crass sensationalism of the media nowadays, this literally is a goldmine.

  2. #52
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I suspect that many of these violators are not even pedophiles in the first place, but rather find themselves with no outlet for their sexual desires except children because of the Catholic church's ludicrous rules involving priests and celibacy.
    No, that doesn't make sense. If you're willing to engage in pedophilia and rape of children, obviously the church rules aren't of your concern.

    I remember reading about the rate of child abuse cases being no different between married clergy and clergy not allowed to marry.

  3. #53
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    in the same way MacDonalds is the root of all evil fast food...
    Except in many cases it is. I went to an interview for a dairy queen job here once, and they mentioned they LOVED it when they got ex-macdonald's employees, because the macdonald's here really does treat them like crap, to the point that if they work anywheres else after it, the employees will appreciate ANYWHERES other than mc'd's greatly.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Kat - you are not coming over as Catholic bashing or anything, it's media driven not you... from what I can see.
    Yeah, I'm just self conscious about these things though. I'm possibly one of the truly most absolutely fair and level people, and hate both ends of any spectrum generally... like 'women's rights', yes I fully endorse such... but I truly endorse 'real equality', which we don't have. In the past, 'womens rights' sucked yes... but there was a complex balance; to be the 'weaker' gender, we got other benefits like having doors held open, the concepts of chivilry, not having to go to the front lines in wars, nor be drafted, things were semi balanced, though very badly in some ways admittedly. As we gain female 'equality' though, it's not equality at all... too often feminazi's (and yes there are some who qualify for that horrid term) insist on being deserving of all the benefits a man gets, but should also get all the benefits a woman gets TOO and suffer none of the drawbacks that come with a man's benefits. Look at the "can guys be stay at home dads" thread for an idea of how lopsided things are becomming... going the other way doesn't make it any better, sexism against males is still sexism. In any case, I try to actually maintain a TRUE middle ground on these types of things, but I get really paranoid because some people will take any criticism at all as taking sides.



    In the matter of the catholic church, or christianity in general, I have no direct issues with such, I may have individual complaints about certain practices (worshipping saints? But saints are appointed BY MAN... at least one saint's actually had sainthood revoked... doesn't that basically go against the "do not worship false idols" dealie? ) which I find to be rather contradictory to the basic message insisted upon, but those things are seperate and unrelated, I try carefully to avoid factoring in my personal issues with any given organization, and focus instead on the actual direct problem at hand. Or at least try to single it out. Sometimes the other issues may be inextricably tied to such though, such as the 'chaste priesthood' the catholic denomination has, could very well be tied in some way to sexual crimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    When he was a young boy at a Catholic-run institute for the deaf, Alessandro Vantini said, priests sodomized him so relentlessly he came to feel "as if I were dead."

    I don't understand how a child is anally raped repeatedly and nobody knows about it. It seems physically impossible. Where were they that nobody heard him scream the first time, much less repeated times?
    Just figured I'd outline the issue there.

    Who would hear him? If he himself was born deaf, have yeu ever seen someone who's born deaf try to scream? They have no idea of whot volume they're providing, it doesn't sound like much of anything, it's more a bizzare moan-gasp-whine-yell thing that wouldn't really be recognized as a 'scream', even if it were heard, though the volume would unlikely be very loud, especially due to atrophied vocal chords. I would not be surprised in the slightest that even IF he cried out, it would either not be heard, or just assumed to be normal for the deaf.

    There's also the matter of authority and the "if yeu cry out yeu'll regret it" thing.

    In any case, he probably wouldn't've cried out to begin with, if he did loud enough to be heard, it'd probably only be heard by other deaf people, the priests who don't care, or people who don't know whot to make of it, and even if someone DID hear it that COULD have done something, they probably wouldn't've understood it was a plea for help, and IF they did, the chances of them going against the moral authority figure of the church and expecting to actually win would've been between slim and none, so they probably wouldn't bother even if they heard it.

    Yeu're asking the wrong question. The question yeu should be asking, is "how many times has this happened that haven't been caught for these same reasons?"

  4. #54
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    I somehow managed to miss the fact that it was a school for the deaf.

    But I mean the question in general. How are children sodomized repeatedly and no one notices, hears them scream, sees that they're in pain afterwards, sees blood in their underwear, etc.

  5. #55
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    I somehow managed to miss the fact that it was a school for the deaf.

    But I mean the question in general. How are children sodomized repeatedly and no one notices, hears them scream, sees that they're in pain afterwards, sees blood in their underwear, etc.
    Lots of plausible explainations. Spankings, diseases, etc... the general assumption is that parents, or those that deal with children, love kids and would never harm them. Unless someone comes forth and SAYS they did something wrong, most won't even assume so. It's not like it's really hard for someone who controls the school or house to throw out the underwear and buy new stuff, or wash it throughally.

    In any case, it's not like it's assumed that IF yeu happened to see those specific traits, that yeu would assume rape had taken place. Generally, yeu'd assume a dozen other things first, and even if yeu suspected that maybe rape DID occur, yeu'd be trying to disprove such to yeurself probably, and explaining things in other ways if possible.

    And there's always the further problem that rape is very difficult to prove... there's little physical evidence left behind usually. And if yeu make an accusation... and turn out to be wrong... or at least can't gather enough evidence... it can make yeu look bad, and make new enemies, especially powerful ones.

    Toss on the social stigma that occurs when yeu're even ACCUSED of child molestation... look at whot happened to michael jackson... baseless accusations that even the child involved and mother agreed that the accusations were false, but it was spun by the media because it was so sensational and 'great news' that it turned great ratings, as people tuned in to see it. Way too many people STILL believe 'he did it' even though there was really practically no case at all, and was just a coordinated form of slander from someone who was jelous. Most people don't want to put someone through that unless there's good cause. And may wait until there's overwhelming cause, rather than at the first sign.

    It's a crap situation, but one which gets left be far too long, even when people know about it.

  6. #56
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Maybe their mothers thought the soiled underclothes were due to consensual acts with other boys? They might believe that rather than sexual abuse and the shame at the thought of having a homosexual son would cause her to keep her concerns to herself, if not to go into complete denial. I don't know. It's so sad.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #57
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  8. #58
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Except in many cases it is. I went to an interview for a dairy queen job here once, and they mentioned they LOVED it when they got ex-macdonald's employees, because the macdonald's here really does treat them like crap, to the point that if they work anywheres else after it, the employees will appreciate ANYWHERES other than mc'd's greatly.
    McD's is no angel, by any streach but certianly in this country it is better than it is portrait. My point being it's the biggest and it's used as a generic term for the wider market of fast food outlets being evil.... Catholic church is a represnetation of all religious instutites, they set rules and then break them themselves (like most institutions)... it's the hypocracy that draws the media in.


    I totally agree on extremes of spectum being annoying, the whole too equal bothers me as much as no rights... balance is needed between the poles

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    In the matter of the catholic church, or christianity in general, I have no direct issues with such, I may have individual complaints about certain practices (worshipping saints? But saints are appointed BY MAN... at least one saint's actually had sainthood revoked... doesn't that basically go against the "do not worship false idols" dealie? ) which I find to be rather contradictory to the basic message insisted upon, but those things are seperate and unrelated, I try carefully to avoid factoring in my personal issues with any given organization, and focus instead on the actual direct problem at hand.
    Ok now you are confused... Saints are not worshiped, Jesus, God, and the holy spirt are worshiped....Mary is high up there and the saints are prayed too but they are not considered deity. Jesus was only made a deity after papal discussions, saints are elevated in church status as exemplars of behaviour... there is a clear distinction within the the religion about that. It is unusal for sainthoods to be revoked, but then it is unusal for the church to ever U-turn - because it's a SJ type institution it needs its traditions. People don't woship idols in the church.. I'm not sure I'm educated enough to explain the difference between prayer and worship. In catholisicim no one paray to the statue - which is the whole false idol... all through from the outside, to you it must seem that way... there are subtle but important differences.

    Freaky stuff about saints (interesting but off topic)
    http://www.rameysrealm.com/saint.htm
    Padre Pio The Mystic - Bilocation
    But we could get seriously off topic.... the trinity = god, everyone else are exemplars..

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Or at least try to single it out. Sometimes the other issues may be inextricably tied to such though, such as the 'chaste priesthood' the catholic denomination has, could very well be tied in some way to sexual crimes.
    To my knoweldge, celebacy doesn't create or promote sexual perversion and some of the practices we have been talking about are perversions (not just illegal sexual behaviours)...

    Some perverts may be trying to supress their sexuality by becoming chaste because they know what is in their mind is wrong, but the chasteness is not a cause of what is in their mind. I read a book (truthfully - I flicked through it, it was 4 inches thick and I wasn't that intereted) a long time ago on the mental illness of sexuality... so better to think of perverted acts as being part of someones mental health than caused by the absetence of sex... Hopefully this makes sense...

    Ie not gettng any sex doesn't make you desire to abuse a 10 year old. The abusive thoughts are a mental state....





    I'll add a bit to how can a child be rapes without other people knowing...

    In a class room of 6 year olds terrified by teacher brutality a child can be raped very easily because the kids are too scared to do anything...

    In schools there are often pre-fab building or buildings away from the main establishment that a child can be kept back from his peers who go out to play...

    In the playing fields around schools...

    How supervised are teachers? Not very....

    How easy is it for child to be abuse without the mother knowing about it? So many case of it... abusers work with fear and power often the sexual act is about power/fear not about sex at all. Sex crimes are typically cited as power crimes not the sexual act...

  9. #59
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    McD's is no angel, by any streach but certianly in this country it is better than it is portrait. My point being it's the biggest and it's used as a generic term for the wider market of fast food outlets being evil.... Catholic church is a represnetation of all religious instutites, they set rules and then break them themselves (like most institutions)... it's the hypocracy that draws the media in.
    I meant mostly my LOCAL one. I'm sure that "most" aren't that bad, the local walmart sucked bad too... yet still touted their "one of the best places to work!" award, despite laying off half their staff on christmas eve immediately after making them work extra hours on christmas eve, and then refused to give any of them referances. Yeah, that really makes yeu an awesome place to work at, it sure does.

    But that's on the individual level; I think it's PARTIALLY just that there's SO MANY of these places that yeu only hear about the bad ones. On the other hand, there are reasons WHY they're so big... for example, one walmart, when it's workers formed a union, rather than deal with the union, they just closed the walmart entirely as a scare tactic to prevent any of the other stores from trying it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I totally agree on extremes of spectum being annoying, the whole too equal bothers me as much as no rights... balance is needed between the poles



    Ok now you are confused... Saints are not worshiped, Jesus, God, and the holy spirt are worshiped....Mary is high up there and the saints are prayed too but they are not considered deity. Jesus was only made a deity after papal discussions, saints are elevated in church status as exemplars of behaviour... there is a clear distinction within the the religion about that. It is unusal for sainthoods to be revoked, but then it is unusal for the church to ever U-turn - because it's a SJ type institution it needs its traditions. People don't woship idols in the church.. I'm not sure I'm educated enough to explain the difference between prayer and worship. In catholisicim no one paray to the statue - which is the whole false idol... all through from the outside, to you it must seem that way... there are subtle but important differences.

    Freaky stuff about saints (interesting but off topic)
    http://www.rameysrealm.com/saint.htm
    Padre Pio The Mystic - Bilocation
    But we could get seriously off topic.... the trinity = god, everyone else are exemplars..
    Yeah, I kinda poorly worded my point too. And am a bit unsure about the level of worship... the thing about even praying indirectly to god 'through' saints and such though... always struck me as very odd. If god's all powerful, and all knowing, then how come he would have to screen his calls? >.>;; I dunno, there's a thousand weird things like that in the catholic church that just seems wrong to me... like having a patron saint of travel or something, it's like... why? God is all powerful, why's he deferring authority? GOD IS PERFECT, which's the whole purpose of the church... the whole "if yeu want something done right, do it yeurself" applies doubly so when everyone else in the universe is flawed and yeu're perfect. There's just a ton of things like that which I can't even fathom how they can come to that tradition because by the very concept behind it, it goes against the principle dogma of the faith to begin with.


    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    To my knoweldge, celebacy doesn't create or promote sexual perversion and some of the practices we have been talking about are perversions (not just illegal sexual behaviours)...

    Some perverts may be trying to supress their sexuality by becoming chaste because they know what is in their mind is wrong, but the chasteness is not a cause of what is in their mind. I read a book (truthfully - I flicked through it, it was 4 inches thick and I wasn't that intereted) a long time ago on the mental illness of sexuality... so better to think of perverted acts as being part of someones mental health than caused by the absetence of sex... Hopefully this makes sense...

    Ie not gettng any sex doesn't make you desire to abuse a 10 year old. The abusive thoughts are a mental state....
    No, but if yeu are put into an extreme situation, yeu may behave in ways yeu wouldn't otherwise. If yeu deprive someone of food long enough, they'll be willing to eat a food they HATE, just because it's food. If yeu revoke someone from sex long enough, they may be willing to forfeit their morals and do something they'd normally be against just to remove the desire. I don't think it breeds it on a regular basis, or encourages such, but I think that there will be the odd case where someone will be an abnormality, where if they are pushed to an extreme situation, they will break and grab the first thing they can get. This doesn't make them a serial abuser, nor does it make them a 'true' pedophile or 'true' sex offender that has a particular mindset, it just means they did something stupid when they were thinking of a part of their anatomy other than their brain in a very highly pressurized circumstance.

    They would not have acted in that manner in normal situations.




    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    I'll add a bit to how can a child be rapes without other people knowing...

    In a class room of 6 year olds terrified by teacher brutality a child can be raped very easily because the kids are too scared to do anything...

    In schools there are often pre-fab building or buildings away from the main establishment that a child can be kept back from his peers who go out to play...

    In the playing fields around schools...

    How supervised are teachers? Not very....

    How easy is it for child to be abuse without the mother knowing about it? So many case of it... abusers work with fear and power often the sexual act is about power/fear not about sex at all. Sex crimes are typically cited as power crimes not the sexual act...
    This I have heard before. I've actually been told in school that the vast majority of rapes don't cause pregnancy (only maybe 4% supposedly), in large part due to the fact that it's not really the 'sex' part that's the big deal, it's the power and control over an individual's body, making them do something they don't want to which's the real reason for doing so, meaning that the actual act of traditional intercourse is very rare. Which also makes it excedingly difficult to PROVE that one was raped, since if they did it through fear, rather than force... if someone does so WILLINGLY but at gunpoint, if yeu don't see finger marks on their neck, yeu can't prove it happened...

  10. #60
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    I meant mostly my LOCAL one. I'm sure that "most" aren't that bad, the local walmart sucked bad too... yet still touted their "one of the best places to work!" award, despite laying off half their staff on christmas eve immediately after making them work extra hours on christmas eve, and then refused to give any of them referances. Yeah, that really makes yeu an awesome place to work at, it sure does.
    ...
    I see you are talking about people and I'm talkign corporate. Staff are typically hired and managed locally (managers hired at regional level - therefore different structure of power), hence if the store manager is an arse you are screwed... I'm talking big picture corportate - cruel to animals, bad for the planet, sole cause of countries obesity type negative PR... McD's the biggest therefore it's their fault... Which clearly it's not... but it's shart hand for unhealthy living...

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Yeah, I kinda poorly worded my point too. And am a bit unsure about the level of worship... the thing about even praying indirectly to god 'through' saints and such though... always struck me as very odd.
    The easiest way to think about it is God/Jesus/Holy spirit - are decision makers - they have the power to do stuff. The saints are able to influence - and have more influence in certain areas - St Christopher - protects travelers.... God delegates stuff

    This is a crude ananlogy but it will give you the rough gist.

    The reasons there are patron saints of things is because of what the saints did in life... healers, or sailors, protectors etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    No, but if yeu are put into an extreme situation, yeu may behave in ways yeu wouldn't otherwise. If yeu deprive someone of food long enough, they'll be willing to eat a food they HATE, just because it's food. If yeu revoke someone from sex long enough, they may be willing to forfeit their morals and do something they'd normally be against just to remove the desire.
    I dissagree and agree.... I'm not male, but I can assure you I wont turn gay if I live in a same sex comunity, I very much doubt any degree of abstenence would cause me to tip the velvet. Is this the same for men? I can't really say... but there is one thing about messign around with adult sexuality it's another thing taking it to an extreme.... How sex starved wouldn't a guy need to be before he would become a sheep shagger? I just don't buy the abstenence causes this...

    The whole starving to canibals is survival of the fitest, sex isn't about survival.


    "This I have heard before. I've actually been told in school that the vast majority of rapes don't cause pregnancy (only maybe 4% supposedly), in large part due to the fact that it's not really the 'sex' part that's the big deal, it's the power and control over an individual's body"

    I don't get how these things join up. Rape is about power... but there is still sex... the 4% must be the random change of a girl being raped during ovulation or something along those lines... I'm not following your thoughts here.

    Rape is when a person is unwilling and forced to have sex against their will, perhaps without physical assault but there are many ways of force without physical contact... treats or worse, blackmail, knifes, conditionsl threats (I'll rape your little bro type stuff) etc.... But I think we are on the same page on this

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