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  1. #31
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's pretty bad. I don't think that it's shameful anymore to accuse a priest of any type of crime, at least here in northeastern italy (but there are more conservative places, just like in every nation). That's probably written just to make an impact.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  2. #32
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    The point was that Vatican II occurred during the sexual revolution and this somehow caused confusion on sexually inappropriate behavior and how to address it within the Church.
    Yes that's true, but also another result was the laxing of discipline within the institutional church. Many studies seem to suggest that most of the sexual abuse occured during the late 60's to mid-70's; around the time when such confusion was at its heights - since it was immediately after Vatican II took hold.

    Furthermore, there's another issue involved here as to whether or not we're even really talking about "pedophilia" here:
    One misconception is that most of the sexual abuse by priests involves pedophilia -- the molestation of pre-pubertal girls and boys. This is not true. The vast majority of cases appears to be by abusive hebephiles -- adults sexually attracted to post-pubertal adolescents. This often takes the form of sexual activity by homosexual priests "with young seminarians or 16- or 17-year-old boys. While such homosexual activities with minors are criminal offenses -- and immoral -- they are certainly not examples of pedophilia or child molestation." 9

    Child sexual abuse by Roman Catholic clergy
    Yeah interesting they mention homosexual priests there; since according to one study done by John Jay College of Criminal Justice noted that 80% of all victims of sexual abuse were young males.

    And there is the brewing issue of how widespread homosexuality really is among the clergy.

  3. #33
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    In other words, you don't have shit to back this up. Thanks for clarifying.
    Hardly, I just didn't have the information on hand at the moment. Got it now.


    crimen sollicitationis

    Instructio de modo procedendi in causis sollicitationis
    (Instruction on procedure in solicitation cases)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimen Sollicitationis
    Quoniam vero quod in hisce causis tractandis maiorem in modum curari et observari debet illud est ut eaedem secretissime peragantur et, postquam fuerint definitae et executioni iam traditae, perpetuo silentio premantur (Instr. Sancti Officii, 20 febr. 1867, n. 14); omnes et singuli ad tribunal quomodocumque pertinentes vel propter eorum officium ad rerum notitiam admissi arctissimum secretum, quod secretum Sancti Officii communiter audit, in omnibus et cum omnibus, sub poena excommunicationis latae sententiae, ipso facto et absque alia declaratione incurrendae atque uni personae Summi Pontificis, ad exclusionem etiam Sacrae Poenitentiariae, reservatae, inviolabiliter servare tenentur.
    Translation:
    As, assuredly, what must be mainly taken care of and complied with in handling these trials is that they be managed with maximum confidentiality and after the verdict is declared and put into effect never be mentioned again (20 February 1867 Instruction of the Holy Office, 14), each and every person, who in any way belongs to the tribunal or is given knowledge of the matter because of their office, is obliged to keep inviolate the strictest secrecy (what is commonly called "the secrecy of the Holy Office") in all things and with all persons, under pain of automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication, incurred ipso facto without need of any declaration other than the present one, and reserved to the Supreme Pontiff in person alone, excluding even the Apostolic Penitentiary.


    Quote Originally Posted by Crimen Sollicitationis
    ... Spondeo, voveo ac iuro, inviolabile secretum me servaturum in omnibus et singulis quae mihi in praefato munere exercendo occurrerint, exceptis dumtaxat iis quae in fine et expeditiones [recte: expeditione] huius negotii legitime publicari contingat ... neque unquam directe vel indirecte, nutu, verbo, scriptis, aut alio quovis modo et sub quocumque colorato praetextu, etiam maioris boni aut urgentissimae et gravissimae causae, contra hanc secreti fidem quidquam commissurum, nisi peculiaris facultas aut dispensatio expresse mihi a Summo Pontifice tributa fuerit.
    Translation:
    I do promise, vow and swear that I will maintain inviolate secrecy about each and every thing brought to my knowledge in the performance of my aforesaid function, excepting only what may happen to be lawfully published when this process is concluded and put into effect and that I will never directly or indirectly, by gesture, word, writing or in any other way, and under any pretext, even that of a greater good or of a highly urgent and serious reason, do anything against this fidelity to secrecy, unless special permission or dispensation is expressly granted to me by the Supreme Pontiff.


    Crimen sollicitationis (Latin for "the crime of soliciting") was a letter sent in 1962 by Cardinal Alfredo Ottaviani, Secretary of the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office, to "all Patriarchs, Archbishops, Bishops and other Local Ordinaries, including those of Eastern Rite".


    "Anyone involved in the sex abuse investigation, the accuser and the accused... are to be restrained by a perpetual silence... in all matters and with all persons, under the penalty of excommunication."

    It furthermore states specifically, in the matter of a pedophilia case, that no documentation is allowed to be released until 10 years after the victim has reached adulthood.




    However, I was incorrect in my assumption that it was by the current pope, so I retract that statement.

    A revision of the document, in line with the 1983 Code of Canon Law (which had replaced the 1917 Code that was in force in 1962) and the 1990 Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches, was issued in 2001 in the form of the Instruction De delictis gravioribus. An English translation of this 2001 Instruction appeared on Origins, 31:32 (24 January 2001).

    In short, it's been in use at least until 2001, and there's no real reason to assume that it's actually ceased its' use since that point.




    In any case, "you don't have shit to back this up" is hardly the case, I just don't normally tend to go back and quote sources because it's a huge waste of time and yeu're heavily unlikely to actually be pursuaded by written evidence anyway.

    Yeu will either accept the information, or ignore it. Exact quotes and referances are rarely of any value and are an excessive waste of time and effort on my part to attempt to convince the unconvincible, so I just don't bother with it unless specifically requested.

    If somehow this actually makes yeu change yeur mind, then great, but I highly doubt it. If I had a hand written letter from the pope himself, I still doubt yeu'd change yeur mind. Hence, why I really don't bother with digging up this stuff most of the time.

  4. #34
    Senior Member tinkerbell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Yes that's true, but also another result was the laxing of discipline within the institutional church. Many studies seem to suggest that most of the sexual abuse occured during the late 60's to mid-70's; around the time when such confusion was at its heights - since it was immediately after Vatican II took hold.
    :
    For all the 60's and early 70's were considered the sexual revolution, it was also a time of relative innocence in the main. The thought that an upright member of the community could do such a henous crime would be a stretch...

    It's unlikely that people would have beleived the abuse was happening....

    My own dad didn't realise about the school my elder siblings were in was experiencing what one bro calles brutality... Preists were considered to be beyond question - even when kids came home with torn blazers/cloths - they were more likely to get a clip around the ear than be listened too.

  5. #35
    ♪♫♪♫♪♫ luminous beam's Avatar
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    off with his head! (either one lol)


  6. #36
    Sniffles
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    Thanks for the excerpts, I'll review them later.

    Not only that, I was actually able to find information about this in English. Including this one by Thomas Doyle(who holds a doctorate in Canon Law) which certainly does much to condemn the secrecy of the Church in pursuing cases against pedophile priests, although does so far more fair-mindly than you. He notes:
    23. Nevertheless we cannot accurately interpret and criticize this document solely by our contemporary standards based on the institutional churchs handling of clergy sex abuse cases over the past few years. It is dangerous to isolate the document and strain to make it more than what is was intended to be for in so doing the meaning of the document and the actual intention of the framers can become distorted.

    24. The institutional Catholic Church has been criticized for having a culture of secrecy, especially with regard to clergy sexual misconduct. Such secrecy in these matters has not been the constant practice of Church leadership since its own official documentation from the past demonstrates that official attempts to curb violations of mandatory clerical celibacy were regularly published to all. For example, the Apostolic Constitution Sacramentum Poenitentiae, issued by Pope Benedict XIV in 1741, was included in the 1917 Code of Canon Law......

    ...26. The 1962 document and its predecessor from 1922 are not proof of an explicit worldwide conspiracy to cover up clergy sex crimes. It seems more accurate to assess both statements as indications of a policy of secrecy rather than a conspiracy of cover up. The reasons for the insistence of such confidentiality were no doubt grounded in positive intentions to protect the sacraments of penance and holy orders, to safeguard the inviolability of the confessional seal and to prevent false accusations of solicitation, among other things.
    Nevertheless such secrecy has not been well accepted or understood in the present day in light of the official Church's response to reports of clergy sex abuse. This policy of extreme confidentiality, whether it has ever been officially published as such or not, has been deeply rooted in the ecclesial culture for centuries. The documents under consideration are a product of that culture. They did not create it.

  7. #37
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Yeu will either accept the information, or ignore it. Exact quotes and referances are rarely of any value and are an excessive waste of time and effort on my part to attempt to convince the unconvincible, so I just don't bother with it unless specifically requested.
    Thank you Kat,
    I didn't mean to put you on the spot.

    The source matterial is very helpful and if fact does alter my assessment.

    Much appreciated.

  8. #38
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Thanks for the excerpts, I'll review them later.

    Not only that, I was actually able to find information about this in English. Including this one by Thomas Doyle(who holds a doctorate in Canon Law) which certainly does much to condemn the secrecy of the Church in pursuing cases against pedophile priests, although does so far more fair-mindly than you. He notes:
    Yeah, admittedly I got most of my information on the matter from a biased source; I'd actually tried to even it out some to somewhot unbias but yeu can only go so far with whot's actually written XD

    And yes, basing those on the culture at the time does make far more sense than creating the culture; however keep in mind that as the church has excessive influence over culture in that region, and in some ways worldwide, any stance taken by the church, even if it's only cause BY that culture, also therefore REINFORCES that culture further.

    There's alot of weird inconsistancies too where half the doctrine may change one way, and half doesn't change, and then yeu end up with really weird situations like say... gay rights. According to the catholic church at least, being gay is *NOT* evil; love between two men or women is fine, there's nothing wrong with it at all. But marriage is forbidden, and the sexual act of gay intercourse *IS* condemned. Which's... kinda counterintuitive >.>;

    Since yeu can be gay and love yeur gay partner, yeu're just not allowed to show that love.

    That, however, stems back to the church's belief of intercourse existing for the sole purpose of the transmission of life, and yeu can't get pregnant if yeu have gay sex, so it must be evil.

    But anyways, that's a completely different topic XD

    The concept in general though means that, even though the church's beliefs may be based upon that culture at the time (this's a major argument that there is no good or evil, since even the church's beliefs are only an extension of current culture), it also reinforces those cultural beliefs significantly, and may in fact enforce them in some cases in methods more strongly rooted than mere law (it wouldn't be the first time someone refused to do something, not because it was against mortal law, but because it was against god's law and hell sucks more than prison).

    That being said, I personally think the church should be looking at things from a far more responsible position than they do. All churches and all religions for that matter, not just the catholic one.

    They have alot of control over the masses, and just going along with the masses for fear of loosing subjects is a poor choice; they have the moral obligation that if they want to call themselves moral, they should be enforcing actual 'real' morals, not just whotever happens to be popular at the time.

    Due to the fact that they claim to maintain a moral high ground, and are the center of "good" in the world, and God's own decrees, they therefore have set their own selves up on having to be judged on a different scale than other institutions.

    Just saying "well that's just whot popular culture was at the time" isn't really good enough if yeu want to say yeu're the center of morality and goodness. Yeu have to be willing to go against popular culture and mold them to match whot really is good, not just whot people con themselves into thinking is good.

    Due to that, although I'll give them that they're only human, they have claimed to be better than human, and as such must lead by example, not content themselves to mimic the sins around them. There's no moral high ground in that at all.

    That said though, a priest is still human. The pope is a human. They are flawed by default, and this is a given. The bible was written by humans, and is flawed by default. To assume that they are infallable is foolish and reckless at best. Being touched BY the word of god is quite different than BEING the word of god. Some of us, however, have not made this distinction yet unfortunately.

    In any case, I don't really hate the church or anything, though for a variety of reasons I personally view the catholic church as more of a cult than an actual religion, but I won't get into that here. The point is that, due to the way the positions and rulings are set, it is MORE LIKELY for a sex offender to be a member of the church, than it is for them to be working as many other positions. Teachers are also at higher risk for this, as are several other parental/guidance roles. Parents themselves are even prone to this moreso than those who do not have children, interestingly enough.

    I'm far from condemning the positions, I'm just trying to state that there are factors which are beneficial to a sexual predator who would find these positions to be preferable, and will work towards these goals.

    There are also some factors which may nudge one towards a predatorial mindset due to the situation they find themselves within as well. Not all obviously, but to state that someone who is to consistantly and continually bare witness to accounts of sexual acts, and must interact in relation to these things, but not be able to experience such, can definately have an impact.

    The most obvious of these being a priest, however; they must listen to confessions of sexual based sins, and they must pass judgement on sexual acts, and encourage certain sexual behaviours... however they are not in a position to actually EXPERIENCE such, so can't truly understand whot their rulings are. They are continually pressured by sexuality, yet unable to experience it, this won't, in and of itself, create a sexual predator... but it can encourage a latent desire and push it out of just being something repressed, into something that can no longer be repressed.

    As such, someone, who in another profession, may never have reached that breaking point, may experience sexual stress and frustration to such a degree that said breaking point is actually reached due to their position as a priest. If they'd been in another line of work, it very well may not have occured, as the same pressures would not have applied.

    There's other powerful things in play as well though, such as the need to set a moral high ground, a good example, the pressures of image and taboo and so on which can also work against such as well, so, although there's additional sexual pressure, there's also additional safeguards which wouldn't exist otherwise. The question is more of are the safeguards enough to counteract the pressures provided.

    In terms of pressure, we can describe it as a pressure chamber; add more pressure and it'll rupture. If yeu increase the restraints and thicken the walls, it requires more pressure to rupture. However, refusing to allow a pressure release valve is the most dangerous thing to do; restricting priests from ever experiencing sex is essentially the same concept; yeu're removing the ability to release the sexual pressures forced upon them, and no matter how thick yeu make the walls of their chamber, the pressure still exists. If there's even a single weak link, which isn't forced enough, then it can still break.

    In any case, priests are more likely to end up as being sexually abusive, if for no other reason, than that they have no way to be sexually in any manner OTHER than abusive.

    Obviously not all will turn out this way, and the vast majority are *NOT*. But proportional to 'normal' people, they are corraled into a situation where they are more disproportionately likely to find a sexual predator in an equal sampling size of priests, as opposed to non-priests.

    That being said, I just want to emphasize I don't hate the church, not even the catholic one, even if I think their dogma is a bit... off at times. I'd also like to emphasize that this view is based on the factors inherant to the situation, rather than the fact that it has any connection at all to the church, if these same factors were present in the presidency, I'd be arguing the same thing.

    Of course, that doesn't mean as much since Bill Clinton I suppose >.>; Oh and JFK's sex scandal... actually maybe that is just as good a thing to poke at XD

  9. #39
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    I've known of Protestant churches to have problems with this, too. Predators seek out places where they have access to children and where people are expected to not think evil for others (in their group, at least) and there is a tradition of respect for authority figures. It's an easy hunting ground.

    I think I began needing a criminal background check in order to work with children at church in the early nineties, but it's been a long time, so I'm not sure. I know I had to have one in the early 2000s when I was helping with childrens' church. The church's insurance required it and that pastor had had problems with predators in his church before, so he wanted them done anyway.

    When I put my kids in public school in 2005, a background check was required for attending field trips or coming the the school in any volunteering capacity.

    The background checks are very limited, though. I'm pretty sure they only work if you've been caught and convicted and they used to be only regional. Not sure how they work now.

    The elementary schools my children have attended have cameras throughout the building, but I'm sure someone who was very familiar with their locations could find a way around them with a little effort.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  10. #40
    Sniffles
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    Well Katsuni, you certainly gave me a lot to respond to. So I hope you don't mind if I postpone my response til later, when I have more energy for such an extensive reply.

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