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  1. #81
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    It's a shame that law-abiding citizens in the inner city often support more stringent gun control, because they are the ones who should be arming themselves and getting training on firearm safety, martial arts, etc.
    Well, they get shot pretty often, and it's not the police that are shooting them, the large majority of the time. So, it's not surprising that they don't want guns around. The "protection" provided by guns is mainly useful to protect yourself from other people with guns. One can look at this and pretty quickly figure out that it would be easier to just not have guns.

    The intent isn't the problem. The real problem is I haven't seen anyone establish a particularly effective procedure for actually keeping guns out of peoples' hands. In the end, it will probably be easier to find other methods of reducing violence, as much as I loath to accept that.
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  2. #82
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elaur View Post
    You can guess and re-guess what the criminal might have been doing or thinking. But that doesn't change that he was there when he shouldn't have been. How can you blame the police for letting him go but not realize that if he hadn't been in their garage it wouldn't have happened? Wouldn't it be easier if he had controlled himself rather than the police needing to control him or the swordsman controlling his sword? Everyone get together to be concerned for his well being when he isn't.
    Without question, he shouldn't have been there and I didn't think that needed to be spelled out. I don't think I ever condoned his choice of employment. He should have been charged and kept behind bars. He should have learned from oh, the first 20 something times he attempted robbery and wasn't so successful. This does not of course justify his death. The police having found him and the student having not run out with his sword are also ways in which his death could have been avoided.


    That is exactly why there is no way to understand each other. What would the burglar have to have done to be ok to "defend" yourself? Hit you with fists? Grab something in the garage and attack? Where is the line? We should hand out check lists "if the burglar does 1, 2, 3 and 4 it is ok if you defend yourself." We could all put them up in our houses and read them like a "stroke warning signs" card.
    A direct threat to the person would warrant an attack using any means necessary. Two points again, first that there was no immediate threat to the student's life until he went out with the sword and approached the burglar. Second, I'm not sure that was a wise thing to do if the burglar had been armed.


    Of course there should be an investigation. Did someone say there shouldn't be? If someone dies naturally without doctors knowing why - they do an autopsy and take time to look into it. You really think people aren't advocating for investigations? Any death is investigated. You are adding something to the argument that no one is arguing.
    Our discussion clearly has no bearing on the investigation. No, I did not suggest that people were arguing against an investigation. The investigation was brought up to make the point that similar questions were being asked by the police and it made sense to ask them until we had all the evidence before us.

    This discussion here can only address our own views on the event - expressing support or the lack of it for one side and what do we learn from it for the future (other people who find themselves in similar circumstances) and the rest of us who are concerned both about our safety more broadly and about people's rights being respected. The accolades for the student seemed strange and the blanket support for him premature.

  3. #83
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    OK so you think individual property rights take precedence over others' right to life?!
    One's rights can be willfully abrogated through one's actions. Otherwise, we could not legitimately fine or imprison criminals, either. The burglar has the right not to be killed without warning or without the opportunity to surrender (both of these conditions contingent on the victim wielding a fire-arm, otherwise the victim should be under no obligation to endanger his family by notifying an intruder that he has been caught). The burglar may then choose himself whether he values the possible loss of his life less than the certain loss of his physical liberty, both as a consequence of his willful actions.

  4. #84
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, they get shot pretty often, and it's not the police that are shooting them, the large majority of the time. So, it's not surprising that they don't want guns around. The "protection" provided by guns is mainly useful to protect yourself from other people with guns. One can look at this and pretty quickly figure out that it would be easier to just not have guns.
    And the criminals are armed to the teeth, so it's probably a good idea to have guns around. Gun control doesn't do much when you've got illegally dealt handguns everywhere on the streets. The problem is that many of the people in the inner city just do not understand this dynamic. The people who would have the most (legal) use for handguns have a natural aversion to them. Concealed carry laws has been a positive in the states that have introduced them.


    The intent isn't the problem. The real problem is I haven't seen anyone establish a particularly effective procedure for actually keeping guns out of peoples' hands. In the end, it will probably be easier to find other methods of reducing violence, as much as I loath to accept that.
    Easier, more effective, and less threatening to liberty.
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  5. #85
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post

    A direct threat to the person would warrant an attack using any means necessary. Two points again, first that there was no immediate threat to the student's life until he went out with the sword and approached the burglar.
    From a more recent article in the Baltimore Sun:
    4. More information has emerged showing that police were alerted by a neighbor earlier that evening that an intruder was lurking in the yard. They came around to look but failed to locate the guy. Later the student decided to investigate for himself, grabbed his sword and came out to check. He saw the guy crouching in the corned and moved towards him saying that he should stay there.
    Wait OK, let me get this straight... a neighbor saw a burglar lurking in the yard... and you don't consider that an immediate threat?

    What does "immediate threat" mean to you? Being half a second away from death? If there is a burglar lurking in your yard, you ARE under immediate threat. The student was merely being proactive about his safety (as well as his roommates), because police fucked up and didn't do their job properly.

    Tracking down criminals is police's specialty, yet a student did a better job than them.

    Yet another reason to own a weapon in Baltimore, because apparently the police there is utterly incompetent.
    Listen to me, baby, you got to understand, you're old enough to learn the makings of a man.

  6. #86
    Senior Member Gewitter27's Avatar
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    I really don't care to listen to CNN, It is even more biased and unreliable than most news-stations.

    Anyway I'd say that fencing is an interesting skill, and he did well. However, "Immediate Threat" IS a totally subjective term, and changes with every given situation.
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  7. #87
    Senior Member cogdecree's Avatar
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    Since all we have to base this on is the article,

    "the student with the sword defended himself, severing the man's left hand and cutting his upper body, Guglielmi said."

    As to where the attacker got hit, upper body and left hand, so we can at least guess the attacker was facing the victim, and a severed hand suggests that the criminal reached out toward the victim.

    "They discovered a suspected burglar with a severed left hand and severe lacerations to his upper body, Guglielmi said.

    The suspect died at the scene, he said.."

    Meaning the offender died from a slow loss of blood and not from a finishing blow, thus the intent was to handicap the criminal not exclusively kill him. So at some point they decided the threat was non existent, which shows restraint in itself.

    "the suspect, who Guglielmi said had a long criminal history"

    "Burglars had taken two laptops and a Sony PlayStation from the students' home Monday, Guglielmi said.

    The burglary suspect had been released from prison Saturday, Guglielmi said."

    Thus we can assume he is a career criminal, and criminals that re-visit familiar target areas, are generally more bold than the first time around.

    We can also guess that our criminal justice system had failed in its goals to prevent, deter, rehabilitate, or incapacitate this individual.

    As the justice system failed to protect the student, it is up to the student to protect himself.

    Unless you are arguing the general application of this article, this specific case should be in favor of the student, based off of what the article has presented.

  8. #88
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cogdecree View Post
    Since all we have to base this on is the article,

    "the student with the sword defended himself, severing the man's left hand and cutting his upper body, Guglielmi said."

    As to where the attacker got hit, upper body and left hand, so we can at least guess the attacker was facing the victim, and a severed hand suggests that the criminal reached out toward the victim.

    "They discovered a suspected burglar with a severed left hand and severe lacerations to his upper body, Guglielmi said.

    The suspect died at the scene, he said.."

    Meaning the offender died from a slow loss of blood and not from a finishing blow, thus the intent was to handicap the criminal not exclusively kill him. So at some point they decided the threat was non existent, which shows restraint in itself.

    "the suspect, who Guglielmi said had a long criminal history"

    "Burglars had taken two laptops and a Sony PlayStation from the students' home Monday, Guglielmi said.

    The burglary suspect had been released from prison Saturday, Guglielmi said."

    Thus we can assume he is a career criminal, and criminals that re-visit familiar target areas, are generally more bold than the first time around.

    We can also guess that our criminal justice system had failed in its goals to prevent, deter, rehabilitate, or incapacitate this individual.

    As the justice system failed to protect the student, it is up to the student to protect himself.

    Unless you are arguing the general application of this article, this specific case should be in favor of the student, based off of what the article has presented.
    Yes, this is not the original article but a follow up from the Baltimore Sun that I posted last night. The original discussion was based on an article with much less information than what we now have. This one also states a bit more -- it states that the student went outside with a sword, approached the burglar and asked him to stay put while asking his friends to call the police. The burglar then came towards him with his hands in the air and the student hit him once with the sword.

    Yes, from the article - you are right, it would be correct to assume that once the student was outside and approached the burglar, the burglar freaked out and the student was protecting himself. I don't know about restraint but it is clear that the burglar was asked to stay put, didn't do that, approached him and then the student hit him. Several more details are emerging including information about the burglar himself.

    A few questions -- just wondering aloud:

    If you or anyone else knows anything about swords - I really don't. Can one blow really cause that much damage - sever a hand and cause several lacerations to the upper body? What exactly is a spear laceration?

    Secondly, how long did he have to be lying there before he died? The wounds must be pretty severe for him to bleed to death in a short span of a few minutes when the police arrived (don't know how long this took).

  9. #89
    Nerd King Usurper Edgar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Yes, this is not the original article but a follow up from the Baltimore Sun that I posted last night. The original discussion was based on an article with much less information than what we now have. This one also states a bit more -- it states that the student went outside with a sword, approached the burglar and asked him to stay put while asking his friends to call the police. The burglar then came towards him with his hands in the air and the student hit him once with the sword.

    Yes, from the article - you are right, it would be correct to assume that once the student was outside and approached the burglar, the burglar freaked out and the student was protecting himself. I don't know about restraint but it is clear that the burglar was asked to stay put, didn't do that, approached him and then the student hit him. Several more details are emerging including information about the burglar himself.

    A few questions -- just wondering aloud:

    If you or anyone else knows anything about swords - I really don't. Can one blow really cause that much damage - sever a hand and cause several lacerations to the upper body? What exactly is a spear laceration?

    Secondly, how long did he have to be lying there before he died? The wounds must be pretty severe for him to bleed to death in a short span of a few minutes when the police arrived (don't know how long this took).
    From what it looks like, it was one strike move. The burlgar had his left hand up when the student swung his sword, which then sliced through the wrist and then across the chest.

    Yes when your wrist is severed that's a pretty severe injury, and you can bleed to death very quickly. Ever heard of people slicing their wrists to commit suicide? Its kind of like that... only worse.
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  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    What would you suggest in the case you provided above? That the person originally holding the crowbar attack the enraged guy first or that it seems like a terrible idea to involve a crowbar in a road rage incident?!?
    Sometime there's no choice. A coworker of mine was attacked and severely beaten in front of his kids by some angry motorist.

    When a person becomes violent, there's no way to predict how far his is willing to go. The defender owes it to himself and his family to overcome the attacker at all cost. The welfare of the attacker should not be a consideration until the threat is over.

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