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  1. #61
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Perhaps not. You're arguing in direct conflict to centuries of case law and legislation.
    Just because yeu've screwed something up for hundreds of years, doesn't mean yeu should continue to screw it up just because it's tradition to do so. "Tradition" is an invalid argument.

    If yeu want "tradition" and "centuries of case law and legislation", then let's bring back eye for an eye punishments, cutting off the hands of thieves, legalized rape, women and non-whites not being considered even 'human'. We could add back all sorts of horrible ideas that were provided time and again in THOUSANDS of years of case law and legislation, from the very earliest laws that existed.

    Let's go a step further, let's add back in the death penalty for things that don't even make sense. Let's STONE PEOPLE TO DEATH for being gay. I'm sure that'll go over well.

    Seriously, use common sense and actually apply reasoning to yeur cases, don't fall back on "this's a bad idea, but we've always done it this way, so we should continue to be stupid because we've always been stupid".



    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I find it disturbing that someone would suggest that it's "fanaticism" to argue that one's individual rights should take a backseat to those of someone in the process of committing a felony. Private property is one of the backbones of free societies.
    I find it disturbing that someone would suggest it's NOT fanaticism to argue that individual rights should ever be abandoned period.

    If yeu go down that route, yeu'll get all the fun of having people show up in the middle of the night, putting a bag over yeur head, and yeu "disappear", because yeu supposedly committed a crime, and forfeited all yeur rights.

    I agree with whot the person in this case did, not because they were right in the matter, murder is not a punishment befitting the crime; yeu can't even legally put a theif to the death penalty in the courts, so whot makes yeu think that an INDIVIDUAL acting on their own, and emotionally unstable at the time, should be given more authority than a legal office specifically designed to be impartial and fair, with checks and balances? If yeu can't charge them with the death penalty if they were caught by the police, why should yeu be allowed to charge them with the death penalty if they were caught by the homeowner?

    There are extrenuous circumstances however, in the case presented, yes those circumstances are present. The capacity for the individuals in question to truly restrain the theif safely is almost nil. Yeu have NO clue how hard it is to hold someone down who is scared for their life. If yeu're comming at them with a sword, trust me, there is NO way that 3 people can hold them down and keep them steady unless all three of them are notably over the weight of the person they're trying to subdue, and even then it isn't always possible, and usually requires special training to do so.

    There's not much reason to believe that the 4 who caught the theif could've reliably managed to detain him without excessive risk to themselves, and there's no reason to believe that they could've injured without killing.

    People are idiots; permanent solution to temporary problem. Go commit suicide right now if yeu enjoy that line of reasoning, because it's the exact same thought process.

    Human life should be valued. Hell, life in general should be valued. The funniest part though, is that the same people who are all for the DEATH PENALTY, are oddly enough, frequently the same people who tend to call themselves "pro-life". Seriously, WTH?

    Keep in mind there's alot of reasons why people steal in the first place. There's even alot of cases where someone will go out and commit a theft the moment they're released from prison ON PURPOSE, because after blowing 20-25 years of their life in prison, they have no useful skills left, they no longer can work in the world, they have a criminal record, and in short, are now restricted to the only lifestyle they know anymore... and commit a crime just so that they can get back into the only place they're comfortable anymore, because they are no longer fit to live in 'the real world'. These are people who should be pitied, as they've not only had their lives ruined forever, often for a simple mistake or bad decision, but instead some would rather torture or kill them.

    We're not barbarians, we're not animals, we just loooooooove to go on about how superior we are to animals... and then the same people who are most insistant that we are 'better' than a dog, are no better than one themselves; they can't rise above their basic instincts, and are little more than an animal that can use tools. They never truly learn to use their brain.

    The next time yeu go out camping, I hope yeu get eaten by a bear that's defending its' home, because it's the exact same line of reasoning. Yeu have not even progressed beyond animal instinct.

    Yeur home is yeur castle, and yeu have a right to defend it within reason, yeu do not, however, have a right to use lethal force inappropriately. Go ahead and check yeur laws on self defense... yeu're not even allowed to use a gun against someone who has a knife in most states.

    Life is sacred, stop wasting it just because yeu feel yeurs is more valuable than everyone else's. If yeu have no value on life, or value property over life, yeu already are a criminal and just haven't committed a crime yet.



    EDIT: after reading this over after posting, I realize I got a 'tiny' bit nuts in about the later half of this myself. After about the halfway mark, this wasn't really directed at anyone in particular anymore, just a generic rant and vent of frustration against people in general who have no value for life, and hypocrites. Of which I realize the whole bear eating thing was probably hypocritical as well, though honestly I don't really think I'd be pleased if it'd happen, though I do think the term 'poetic justice' would still apply.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Just because yeu've screwed something up for hundreds of years, doesn't mean yeu should continue to screw it up just because it's tradition to do so. "Tradition" is an invalid argument.
    Nevertheless, precedent does carry considerable weight within legal reasoning.

  3. #63
    Priestess Of Syrinx Katsuni's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Nevertheless, precedent does carry considerable weight within legal reasoning.
    Which's sad... because there's been a great number of cases where the RIGHT decision... has been abandoned, because of the precedent it might set.

    "Yes, we know yeu're innocent, and we know yeu don't deserve to be incarcerated nor punished, however, if we let yeu go, it'll set a precedent that will cause problems later on, so we're going to have to punish yeu for it anyway."

    Love that line of reasoning -_-;

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Which's sad... because there's been a great number of cases where the RIGHT decision... has been abandoned, because of the precedent it might set.
    Precedents only have validity when rendered on basis of justice and reason. The principle is not to follow precedent for precedent's sakes.

  5. #65
    Black Magic Buzzard Kra's Avatar
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    I think some of us are forgetting that we don't know the whole story here. We don't know that the student identified a robber, picked up a sword with the intention of resolving it himself.

    Let's be reasonable. When people hear a loud noise from an unoccupied area of your property, most people will go to inspect the situation and will usually grab some means of protection just in case. The kids probably went to inspect it, and were caught off guard by the thief, and he apparently lunged at the kid with the sword.

    If a thief lunges at you, an armed man, you better assume that he either has a weapon on his person, or that he intends to take yours and use it against you. If you don't get those assumptions out of the way, you stand a very large chance of being injured or killed. If he is unarmed, he would have probably escaped rather than confront the kid.

    From the sounds of some of the arguments, it seems as though people are jumping to the conclusion that this student had an latent bloodlust, and at the opportunity of a burglar he thought, "Oh boy! A chance to kill!" There's just no evidence for that so far. On the other hand, there is evidence that the student was in a situation that called for the defense of his life.

    This should be a very cut and dry case of Darwin Award levels.
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  6. #66
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Just because yeu've screwed something up for hundreds of years, doesn't mean yeu should continue to screw it up just because it's tradition to do so. "Tradition" is an invalid argument.

    If yeu want "tradition" and "centuries of case law and legislation", then let's bring back eye for an eye punishments, cutting off the hands of thieves, legalized rape, women and non-whites not being considered even 'human'. We could add back all sorts of horrible ideas that were provided time and again in THOUSANDS of years of case law and legislation, from the very earliest laws that existed.

    Let's go a step further, let's add back in the death penalty for things that don't even make sense. Let's STONE PEOPLE TO DEATH for being gay. I'm sure that'll go over well.
    How the FUCK do you get stoning gay people to death for being gay out of "respect invidiual rights?" What?


    Seriously, use common sense and actually apply reasoning to yeur cases, don't fall back on "this's a bad idea, but we've always done it this way, so we should continue to be stupid because we've always been stupid".
    There are very good reasons why we uphold private property and personal defense laws. I'm frankly astounded at this.



    I find it disturbing that someone would suggest it's NOT fanaticism to argue that individual rights should ever be abandoned period.

    If yeu go down that route, yeu'll get all the fun of having people show up in the middle of the night, putting a bag over yeur head, and yeu "disappear", because yeu supposedly committed a crime, and forfeited all yeur rights.
    Again, WHAT THE FUCK?


    I agree with whot the person in this case did, not because they were right in the matter, murder is not a punishment befitting the crime; yeu can't even legally put a theif to the death penalty in the courts, so whot makes yeu think that an INDIVIDUAL acting on their own, and emotionally unstable at the time, should be given more authority than a legal office specifically designed to be impartial and fair, with checks and balances? If yeu can't charge them with the death penalty if they were caught by the police, why should yeu be allowed to charge them with the death penalty if they were caught by the homeowner?
    Because there is a difference so gigantic between execution by the state and justifiable homicide as to make your analogy mindbogglingly silly?



    There are extrenuous circumstances however, in the case presented, yes those circumstances are present. The capacity for the individuals in question to truly restrain the theif safely is almost nil. Yeu have NO clue how hard it is to hold someone down who is scared for their life. If yeu're comming at them with a sword, trust me, there is NO way that 3 people can hold them down and keep them steady unless all three of them are notably over the weight of the person they're trying to subdue, and even then it isn't always possible, and usually requires special training to do so.

    There's not much reason to believe that the 4 who caught the theif could've reliably managed to detain him without excessive risk to themselves, and there's no reason to believe that they could've injured without killing.

    People are idiots; permanent solution to temporary problem. Go commit suicide right now if yeu enjoy that line of reasoning, because it's the exact same thought process.

    Human life should be valued. Hell, life in general should be valued. The funniest part though, is that the same people who are all for the DEATH PENALTY, are oddly enough, frequently the same people who tend to call themselves "pro-life". Seriously, WTH?

    Keep in mind there's alot of reasons why people steal in the first place. There's even alot of cases where someone will go out and commit a theft the moment they're released from prison ON PURPOSE, because after blowing 20-25 years of their life in prison, they have no useful skills left, they no longer can work in the world, they have a criminal record, and in short, are now restricted to the only lifestyle they know anymore... and commit a crime just so that they can get back into the only place they're comfortable anymore, because they are no longer fit to live in 'the real world'. These are people who should be pitied, as they've not only had their lives ruined forever, often for a simple mistake or bad decision, but instead some would rather torture or kill them.

    We're not barbarians, we're not animals, we just loooooooove to go on about how superior we are to animals... and then the same people who are most insistant that we are 'better' than a dog, are no better than one themselves; they can't rise above their basic instincts, and are little more than an animal that can use tools. They never truly learn to use their brain.

    The next time yeu go out camping, I hope yeu get eaten by a bear that's defending its' home, because it's the exact same line of reasoning. Yeu have not even progressed beyond animal instinct.

    Yeur home is yeur castle, and yeu have a right to defend it within reason, yeu do not, however, have a right to use lethal force inappropriately. Go ahead and check yeur laws on self defense... yeu're not even allowed to use a gun against someone who has a knife in most states.

    Life is sacred, stop wasting it just because yeu feel yeurs is more valuable than everyone else's. If yeu have no value on life, or value property over life, yeu already are a criminal and just haven't committed a crime yet.



    EDIT: after reading this over after posting, I realize I got a 'tiny' bit nuts in about the later half of this myself. After about the halfway mark, this wasn't really directed at anyone in particular anymore, just a generic rant and vent of frustration against people in general who have no value for life, and hypocrites. Of which I realize the whole bear eating thing was probably hypocritical as well, though honestly I don't really think I'd be pleased if it'd happen, though I do think the term 'poetic justice' would still apply.
    OK, at least you admit it. Once I saw "pro-life" in there, I stopped trying to comprehend.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Was the burglar armed?

    If not, did four people really need to kill the burglar instead of pinning him down and waiting for the police to get there?
    stupid human rights activists.

  8. #68
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Curzon View Post
    stupid human rights activists.


    Let's take them all out with swords, samurai style...

  9. #69
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Perhaps not. You're arguing in direct conflict to centuries of case law and legislation.

    I find it disturbing that someone would suggest that it's "fanaticism" to argue that one's individual rights should take a backseat to those of someone in the process of committing a felony. Private property is one of the backbones of free societies.
    OK so you think individual property rights take precedence over others' right to life?!

    I agree with you when you say the burglar has put himself in a position where he can expect trouble but I struggle to accept that he deserves death. If so why don't we bring back the death penalty for theft, and hey, while we're at it we could bring it back for the 200 other offences people could be executed for in Victorian times.

    The fanaticism I refer to is this obsession with individual rights, especially property rights. People completely lose perspective over this stuff. They fight for their 'individual rights' to such a degree that it encroaches on others' rights.

    An example of how this stuff gets taken too far:
    Couple allegedly shot children | Stuff.co.nz

    I rather dislike having to defend criminals and their behaviour but strangely enough I still see them as human beings. And given the sorts of attitudes toward them that I'm hearing here, you can forgive me for questioning the actions of this student.

  10. #70
    I am Sofa King!!! kendoiwan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I wouldn't even have a problem with the outcome if the burglar didn't lunge at the students, or if he tried to get away. In my opinion, once you break into someone's home (the physical building, not the yard) you are fair game.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    OK so you think individual property rights take precedence over others' right to life?!

    I agree with you when you say the burglar has put himself in a position where he can expect trouble but I struggle to accept that he deserves death. If so why don't we bring back the death penalty for theft, and hey, while we're at it we could bring it back for the 200 other offences people could be executed for in Victorian times.

    The fanaticism I refer to is this obsession with individual rights, especially property rights. People completely lose perspective over this stuff. They fight for their 'individual rights' to such a degree that it encroaches on others' rights.

    An example of how this stuff gets taken too far:
    Couple allegedly shot children | Stuff.co.nz

    I rather dislike having to defend criminals and their behaviour but strangely enough I still see them as human beings. And given the sorts of attitudes toward them that I'm hearing here, you can forgive me for questioning the actions of this student.
    Occupational hazard of a home invader. Tough.
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