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  1. #21
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    That is if they can establish probable cause; which I somewhat doubt they will. But what would I know, I only have a degree in Criminal Justice.
    Okay so this tells us that they would have difficulty PROVING probable cause given the circumstances -- the burglar invaded the garage and in the absence of other witnesses, they will find it difficult to verify that the burglar did in fact attack first. This does not take away from the fact that they are also asking similar questions though and rightfully so.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Okay so this tells us that they would have difficulty PROVING probable cause given the circumstances -- the burglar invaded the garage and in the absence of other witnesses, they will find it difficult to verify that the burglar did in fact attack first. This does not take away from the fact that they are also asking similar questions though and rightfully so.
    Of course they're asking questions, since they need to know what happened for their official reports on the incident. Even if there is an arrest, there's still the open issue of whether or not the prosecutor decides to pursue the case in court.

  3. #23
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Castle Doctrine in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Some states do not have Castle Doctrine enshrined in law, but if someone unlawfully enters your home AND attacks you, you are justified in using force.
    Yes, as long as it's not excessive force. You're authorized only to use enough force to disable/restrain him until police arrive.

    Granted, if you're a woman by yourself and a large man breaks into your house, you probably won't be charged if you use a gun to stop him, because lethal force is the only real option.

    But if you're a black belt in Jiu-Jitsu and a guy breaks in unarmed and you swiftly disable him/knock him out, then proceed to beat his unconscious body to a bloody pulp and break all four of his limbs, you've used excessive force.

    The courts will take these conditions into account, but unfortunately it's a rather inherently gray area of law.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #24
    Mamma said knock you out Mempy's Avatar
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    The broader point is about a citizen taking the law into their own hands. There is a reason we have the judicial system and laws governing punishment. Burglary is not one that is punishable by death, as terrifying as it may be for the victims. We don't yet have proof of the burglar being armed or having attacked the student. Until we have more information, there is no reason to clearly support the student.
    All your points in this thread have been valid, but I think the main point that everyone else has had in response is that these things are rarely, if ever, intentional. In the heat of the moment, you're scared, and your body is pumping your bloodstream full of adrenaline, and you're merely reacting. I think it is nearly impossible that these students intended to kill this man, that the person weilding the sword did it with any calculation.

    If the weilder did intend to use lethal force, it was probably only a very natural response to feeling terrified and threatened. In hindsight, they are all probably just as sad as you are that a life was lost. The point is, it's easy to see other people's guilt when things go as afoul as this. But remember that people are, for the most part, innocent, and human. I trust they had good reason for attacking him, and that they did it innocently and humanly enough. To define his death in terms of punishment is implicitly assuming guilt. I doubt there is any guilt to be assumed.

    The burglar was innocent and didn't deserve to die. But the parties involved are probably innocent, too. Things don't happen to people, the vast majority of the time. They just happen.

    Still, since a life was lost, questions can and should be asked. Still, I doubt we can really know the true circumstances leading up to his death. Without true knowing, I like to assume innocence on the part of all involved.
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  5. #25
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I wouldn't even have a problem with the outcome if the burglar didn't lunge at the students, or if he tried to get away. In my opinion, once you break into someone's home (the physical building, not the yard) you are fair game.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #26
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    The broader point is about a citizen taking the law into their own hands. There is a reason we have the judicial system and laws governing punishment. Burglary is not one that is punishable by death, as terrifying as it may be for the victims. We don't yet have proof of the burglar being armed or having attacked the student. Until we have more information, there is no reason to clearly support the student.
    This really only holds true when law enforcement is capable of actually enforcing the law and protecting the citizens to a degree which eliminates the citizen's need to protect themselves, which will probably never happen.

    The fact is, if you break in to houses, you know the score. If someone broke in to my house, I would tell them to stop and stay and if they came at me that would be a mistake. The police don't give a shit if a burglar gets wasted, anyways. But then, I do live in the same neighborhood as Joe Horn so I could be biased.

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  7. #27
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    You gotta love scum like Quanell X, standing up for the rights of career criminals while they're in the act of committing a crime.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #28
    Was E.laur Laurie's Avatar
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    I know someone who was robbed, when they weren't even home, and it was very traumatic for them. They don't even like leaving their wife alone with the kids to travel. It's easy to say someone should do something else looking at the situation from the outside.

    What if he was looking like he was "lunging" for the door and decided instead to attack someone. How can you even guess what someone is planning to do?

  9. #29
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    There is no question that being burglarized is traumatic for the victim, there is also no question being raised about the right to protect oneself and one's family/possessions.

    The question is one of excessive force - a person was killed in this incident. That is a rather large punishment for burglary. Both sets of human lives are important, aren't they?

    Here's a good article that raises some of the same questions:
    Sword-wielding Hopkins student kills intruder -- baltimoresun.com

    The home wasn't actually broken into, just the garage. The home had been burgled earlier that day. There were a spurt of burglaries in the neighborhood. The student heard noises and instead of calling the police or for help, grabbed his sword and moved towards the sound. The burglar doesn't seem to be armed, likely got freaked out when approached by the student with a sword and ended up dying in the altercation. People who make these swords are saying this was a deadly weapon and takes some skill to kill someone. It didn't just happen.

    We live in a society where carrying and using weapons is seen as rather blase with people taking the law into their hands with deadly consequences. Should we encourage this or ask questions about when it is appropriate to use these weapons ourselves and when it is appropriate to wait for the police to do their job. Unless faced with a threat to one's life, is it appropriate to attack with a deadly weapon and kill? I'm not sure the answer is as straightforward as presented here.

    Mempy - I understand the positions being taken. I'll still ask the same questions. I don't understand why the benefit of doubt is given only to the student: he likely wasn't looking to kill the burglar, he was probably defending himself. Why can't we give the same benefit of doubt to the burglar? He was likely just looking to steal and make some money, not to harm anyone in the house. He hadn't actually broken into the home and was likely not armed.

    Lateralus -- I'm glad that the country's laws aren't based on your views.

    Metamorphosis - please explain this Texas Joe Horn business to me. I'm not aware of what the issue is and the video just shows a bunch of people protesting. Thanks.

  10. #30
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    There is no question that being burglarized is traumatic for the victim, there is also no question being raised about the right to protect oneself and one's family/possessions.

    The question is one of excessive force - a person was killed in this incident. That is a rather large punishment for burglary. Both sets of human lives are important, aren't they?

    Here's a good article that raises some of the same questions:
    Sword-wielding Hopkins student kills intruder -- baltimoresun.com

    The home wasn't actually broken into, just the garage. The home had been burgled earlier that day. There were a spurt of burglaries in the neighborhood. The student heard noises and instead of calling the police or for help, grabbed his sword and moved towards the sound. The burglar doesn't seem to be armed, likely got freaked out when approached by the student with a sword and ended up dying in the altercation. People who make these swords are saying this was a deadly weapon and takes some skill to kill someone. It didn't just happen.

    We live in a society where carrying and using weapons is seen as rather blase with people taking the law into their hands with deadly consequences. Should we encourage this or ask questions about when it is appropriate to use these weapons ourselves and when it is appropriate to wait for the police to do their job. Unless faced with a threat to one's life, is it appropriate to attack with a deadly weapon and kill? I'm not sure the answer is as straightforward as presented here.

    Mempy - I understand the positions being taken. I'll still ask the same questions. I don't understand why the benefit of doubt is given only to the student: he likely wasn't looking to kill the burglar, he was probably defending himself. Why can't we give the same benefit of doubt to the burglar? He was likely just looking to steal and make some money, not to harm anyone in the house. He hadn't actually broken into the home and was likely not armed.

    Lateralus -- I'm glad that the country's laws aren't based on your views.

    Metamorphosis - please explain this Texas Joe Horn business to me. I'm not aware of what the issue is and the video just shows a bunch of people protesting. Thanks.

    Actually, studies have shown that over 90% of the time, just brandishing a weapon is enough to scare these people off. And you have no idea if the burglar was not "looking to harm anyone in the house." So you really are talking out of your ass. Law enforcement officials often support things like concealed carry laws because they are proven to be effective. Garages count as part of your domicile, as well.
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