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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    Ok this is just one of my crazy INTP conspiracy theories yet it would make a good sci-fi story...
    THAT. NTPs are very prone to just that, for some reason. Detachment from reality I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by avolkiteshvara View Post
    No one takes you seriously when you quote Fox News.
    Nobody takes your existence seriously.


    Now, ACORN has come out and said that the woman in the latest vid was just lying to them because she was scared of them (somehow, beats me). Supposedly her husband is "alive and well". As I said before, don't know if it's true or not, but it wouldn't surprise me if she was lying on THAT part. It's hard to believe someone would be THAT stupid, but it does happen, amazingly. In any case, I certainly wouldn't think the whole organization is a bunch of murderers, that would be an isolated incident of... deviance.

  2. #42
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Risen;830674]THAT. NTPs are very prone to just that, for some reason. Detachment from reality I suppose.[QUOTE]

    That WE are.

    With ACORN no longer federally funded I just hope all those poor people who were helped/serviced by the organization will not be left out in the cold and some other public interest group (with better hiring/training/internal investigations) will pick up and continue to help the poor. I however, doubt it.

    THEY JUST GOT PUNK'D!


  3. #43
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    I don't find the methods reprehensible. I think that characterization is over-the-top. Their methods weren't useful if they were conducting a criminal investigation into ACORN, but that's not what they were doing. That's all you can really say.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  4. #44
    Ghost Monkey Soul Vizconde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't find the methods reprehensible. I think that characterization is over-the-top. Their methods weren't useful if they were conducting a criminal investigation into ACORN, but that's not what they were doing. That's all you can really say.

    The methods would be less useful in a criminal investigation because they are reprehensible. Faux News selective reporting on the issue is reprehensible. Faux new is reprehensible and is nearly the lowest of the low on the journalistic totem.

    If one was so inclined, unethical and crafty enough...and with enough financial support, they could pull the same con on any number of respectable organizations. A similar tactic could even be done on the YMCA...the Republican Party would be easier.

    1. Target some stupid, crazy, sneaky, creepy or general loudmouth employees. By casing the tens of thousands of those employees throughout the nation.

    2. Get a crack team of actors who are also skilled in the psychology of persuasion, linguistics and social dynamics. Change costumes actors and roles but keep the con essentially the same. Have cash incentives.

    3. Hidden camera and lots of footage.

    4. Use what works, get a system down, and expand on common deviations of the party line.

    5. Have the team be trained in "self ejection" techniques if it looks like they are going to be caught.

    6. Do a sample expose with through a "sympathetic" media outlet

    7. Follow up with "best" samples of video footage.

    8. Timing. Have timing set for most damage/intimidation (ex. while government decides to renew funding) and make it win/win (i.e. your other opponents will cave in to your pressure (win)/or will not and now have a target on their back via guilt by association which can be used later.

    9. Timed follow up material to keep the story hot.

    10. Escape plan and fall guy when sued for invasion of privacy/illegal wiretap/defamation/unlawful interference with economic advantage/negligent infliction of emotional distress etc...(i.e. shell corporation with no or limited assets preferable fall guy)

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by spamtar View Post
    The methods would be less useful in a criminal investigation because they are reprehensible. Faux News selective reporting on the issue is reprehensible. Faux new is reprehensible and is nearly the lowest of the low on the journalistic totem.

    If one was so inclined, unethical and crafty enough...and with enough financial support, they could pull the same con on any number of respectable organizations. A similar tactic could even be done on the YMCA...the Republican Party would be easier.

    1. Target some stupid, crazy, sneaky, creepy or general loudmouth employees. By casing the tens of thousands of those employees throughout the nation.

    2. Get a crack team of actors who are also skilled in the psychology of persuasion, linguistics and social dynamics. Change costumes actors and roles but keep the con essentially the same. Have cash incentives.

    3. Hidden camera and lots of footage.

    4. Use what works, get a system down, and expand on common deviations of the party line.

    5. Have the team be trained in "self ejection" techniques if it looks like they are going to be caught.

    6. Do a sample expose with through a "sympathetic" media outlet

    7. Follow up with "best" samples of video footage.

    8. Timing. Have timing set for most damage/intimidation (ex. while government decides to renew funding) and make it win/win (i.e. your other opponents will cave in to your pressure (win)/or will not and now have a target on their back via guilt by association which can be used later.

    9. Timed follow up material to keep the story hot.

    10. Escape plan and fall guy when sued for invasion of privacy/illegal wiretap/defamation/unlawful interference with economic advantage/negligent infliction of emotional distress etc...(i.e. shell corporation with no or limited assets preferable fall guy)
    That NTP imagination running the track again...

  6. #46
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    I watched each of these in order last night, minutes before learning that at least four ACORN offices not only accommodated purported sex traffickers but counseled them on criminal methods. Only news of one had reached me prior.

    The San Bernadino encounter was less illustrative, as the employee admitted to having little authority and was plainly a pathological liar -- whereas visits to the Baltimore, D.C. and New York offices showed titled employees helping along scofflaws as if it were in their job description. Not a batted eye. Considering ACORN's other systemic financial and electoral offenses, I turned to my friend and said, "the only thing ACORN isn't now is paramilitary."

    I also speculated that commentators on the left would exculpate these sorry crooks on grounds that the inner city produces nothing better, at which point my friend loaded Frank James' muse from the ivory tower.

    Judging by the thread, this scandal already has the partisans tossing insults, which means it's politically substantial. It might also be memorably poignant, too, if Congress legislates the dispossession of ACORN, sending the bill to the desk of last man anybody thought would sign.

  7. #47
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't find the methods reprehensible. I think that characterization is over-the-top. Their methods weren't useful if they were conducting a criminal investigation into ACORN, but that's not what they were doing. That's all you can really say.
    Rhetoric and trading over-the-top as a phrase aside,

    What exactly are the methods useful for?
    What have we really learned about the organization from these videos?
    Are you seeing these as a useful form of journalism?
    Are you suggesting that activists follow these tactics in the future against other organizations?

  8. #48
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ergophobe View Post
    Rhetoric and trading over-the-top as a phrase aside,

    What exactly are the methods useful for?
    Demonstrating Acorn's terrible hiring practices.

    What have we really learned about the organization from these videos?
    Acorn has a systematic problem of hiring morons. The culture of this organization is a joke. Acorn needs to be smacked around so they are motivated to fix these problems.

    Are you seeing these as a useful form of journalism?
    Classy, no. Useful, yes.

    Are you suggesting that activists follow these tactics in the future against other organizations?
    I have no problem with it, especially if I am an unwilling financial contributor to that organization. If they weren't receiving federal money, I wouldn't care as much. Any organization that receives federal money should be highly scrutinized, whether that be an organization like Acorn or Blackwater. I would gladly watch a similar expose on Blackwater.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #49
    Senior Member TopherRed's Avatar
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    The methodology of journalism is not relavant to the corruption. If something like this was done to the Republican Party, or the Democrats, I'd feel the exact same way. ACORN is funded by my money--as Lateralus said, I wouldn't nearly care as much if that were not the case.
    Love is the point.

  10. #50
    Allergic to Mornings ergophobe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Demonstrating Acorn's terrible hiring practices.

    Acorn has a systematic problem of hiring morons. The culture of this organization is a joke. Acorn needs to be smacked around so they are motivated to fix these problems.
    Yes, this is, in fact all that the videos highlight. We don't even know how wide the problem is. The problems with the methods are highlighted below:

    Classy, no. Useful, yes.
    Classy is hardly the question. Let's examine how useful.


    I have no problem with it, especially if I am an unwilling financial contributor to that organization. If they weren't receiving federal money, I wouldn't care as much. Any organization that receives federal money should be highly scrutinized, whether that be an organization like Acorn or Blackwater. I would gladly watch a similar expose on Blackwater.
    Yes, sure. We agree - all organizations, as I said before, should be subject to scrutiny. We expect transparency in NGOs too, particularly those subsidized with public funds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fuzzcrossed View Post
    The methodology of journalism is not relavant to the corruption. If something like this was done to the Republican Party, or the Democrats, I'd feel the exact same way. ACORN is funded by my money--as Lateralus said, I wouldn't nearly care as much if that were not the case.
    As Lateralus says, all we have really learned from these videos is that ACORN has questionable hiring practices. These should be closely examined.

    What is wrong with these methods and why is this relevant:
    1. As pointed out before, ACORN did not actually support a prostitution ring with underage sex-workers from El-Salvador. What we saw was the actors walking into select offices and presenting a ridicolous situation where ACORN employees were asked to provide tax and housing advice. They did not observe what ACORN was actually doing and did not catch employees participating in illegal activity outside of this situation that they presented. What is reprehensible is that Fox and BigGovernment didn't report what was presented at the above - a tame rethinking of what we actually learned. No, they took the videos and turned them into ACORN as an organization supporting child prostitution in this country. That is morally reprehensible.

    2. The film makers picked and chose the agencies they approached and those they covered in the videos. They did not report those offices that turned them away, that called the police on them when their schemes were relieved. This leads those of us to believe who do actually care about the methods that these were isolated events and this is hand-picked evidence.

    3. The filmmakers received money from conservative activists to make the videos. This puts their credentials as 'independent filmmakers' in serious question. What was their agenda in making these videos - to uncover problems with this agency or to cripple an organization that provides important services to communities across the country.

    4. The filmmakers have numbers in the videos that are just factually wrong. They quote ACORN getting 8 million dollars from the government which is impossible -- this implies they would be applying for and winning every grant offered by the government towards its type of organization. Numbers were doctored to create a certain outrage.

    The problem with hugely biased methods is that the evidence is not reliable. This has nothing to do with them being conservative or not. Michael Moore's methods were questionable too and he lies at the opposite end of the spectrum. Ultimately, it influences how much confidence we can have in their findings and what they actually can demonstrate in the end. At this point, they have successfully created doubt in the minds of the public and Congress. That's more than what this weak evidence deserved.

    The results are huge for ACORN and for the people who relied on their help. Their funding has completely been pulled, contracts withdrawn etc etc without an official investigation and before the independent review they are themselves holding has been completed. They have shut down offices in several cities. This will certainly satisfy the conservative activists who this organization as mobilizing the Democratic base but does little for the poor people, especially in New Orleans, where they are headquartered who depended on their services.

    Covering what actually happened, doing it in a responsible manner where ALL information was revealed clearly and not doctored would lead to people making up their own minds but this was clearly not done.

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