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  1. #11
    I'm a star. Kangirl's Avatar
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    I think I agree with AJ that this was a politically OK move. Morally, well, yeah, no discussion necessary, but politically, yeah. Libya has been slowly integrating back into the 'non-terrorist-nutbar' group of countries for awhile now, so this action seems to follow along with that. I don't foresee any real consequences to US/UK relations - were you talking about something specific, Redneck? I could be wrong, definitely, it just, from a realpolitik perspective, doesn't seem worth it for the US to make anything of this. It's done. And as I mentioned, for good or for bad, Libya is on a trajectory (justified or not) to rejoin the community of non whackjob nations.
    "Only an irrational dumbass, would burn Jews." - Jaguar

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  2. #12
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangirl View Post
    I think I agree with AJ that this was a politically OK move. Morally, well, yeah, no discussion necessary, but politically, yeah. Libya has been slowly integrating back into the 'non-terrorist-nutbar' group of countries for awhile now, so this action seems to follow along with that. I don't foresee any real consequences to US/UK relations - were you talking about something specific, Redneck? I could be wrong, definitely, it just, from a realpolitik perspective, doesn't seem worth it for the US to make anything of this. It's done. And as I mentioned, for good or for bad, Libya is on a trajectory (justified or not) to rejoin the community of non whackjob nations.
    I understand the potential realpolitik advantages to the decision, but I think there is a strong chance that citizen outrage within the United States and the UK will take on a life of its own, outside the control of government officials. As for specifics, so far the minority government of Scotland is threatened with a vote of no confidence, potentially killing and even reversing the momentum the Scottish National Party gained from the last election, while the already beleaguered Labour government, and Gordon Brown in particular, has received even more bad press and public scorn. Hard-core factions within those parties are defiant (an anti-American mindset seems to permeate the socialist left), but both parties need the support of a broader section of the electorate in order to remain in power and advance their agendas. Within the United States, public pressure could lead the Administration to take a stronger position than they wish (which already seems to have happened to some extent), while Scotland is now regarded as the "surrender monkeys" of the UK by folks whose previous opinion of Scotland was largely based on the Braveheart movie-that could potentially affect everything from iconic Scottish imports and tourist destinations to participation in the Highland Games and other manifestations of Celtic pride within the United States.

  3. #13
    The Unwieldy Clawed One Falcarius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    ....out of curiosity, would you also be clueless as to why we would be extremely pissed off if you released Osama Bin Laden from a Scottish jail on "compassionate" grounds?
    Is the Cubana Flight 455 Bombing any different from the Lockerbie Bombing?

    How many Americans made a scene when Libya donated arms to the IRA? How many Americans made a scene when Ronald Reagan ordered the bombing of the home of Libyan leader Moammar Gaddafi, killing his young daughter and 36 other civilians? How many Americans made a scene when terrorists got a get out of jail card under the Good Friday Agreement?

    Is it not hypocritical for the American government to let out a guy called William Calley, who oversaw the My Lai massacre in Vietnam, after a few years house arrest then get annoyed over al-Megrahi being let out?


    Which country has such a regard for liberty that it helped overthrow more democratically governments in Coup d'états than any other but still carries on with her so called War on Terrorism anyway?

    Hence, would it be actually wrong of me to say the American government is nothing more than a bunch of hypocritical rogues at best and lying terrorists at worst?





    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The decision to release the Lockerbie bomber was not made on the basis of any supposed problems with the trial, that's a non-issue.


    I said the decision to release him was made by the SNP because it was perceived to be popular. Rather than what you seem to think I said (because of problems with the trial).



    ''...They ( the SNP) jostle polices that seem popular (like al-Megrahi release) so they can try and use them as a battering ram to hold a referendum on independence''. - Falcarius





    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Read the friggin' second article I posted (as well as several others on the same subject); there is plenty of circumstantial evidence to suggest some degree of collusion between the Scottish and British governments, each for their own reasons. Whether or not such collusion took place remains to be seen.
    I did read the thread and article. I seem to came to the same outcome as you:

    ''... that there is... circumstantial evidence to suggest some degree of collusion between the Scottish and British governments, each for their own reasons. Whether or not such collusion took place remains to be seen.''

    You do know what the deference between circumstantial evidence and direct evidence don't you?


    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    The fact that the Scottish government carried out such an atrocious action clearly demonstrates that Scottish/British sovereignty was not curtailed by the United States. Likewise, how we choose to respond (ranging from boycotts and diplomatic isolation to generalized anger and contempt generated towards anybody would defend such a decision) is up to us; there are consequences (positive, negative, or both) for all choices.


    I never said the United States could not use reasonable diplomatic action if it ever saw it fit to do so on this matter; did I?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thalassa View Post
    Oh our 3rd person reference to ourselves denotes nothing more than we realize we are epic characters on the forum.

    Narcissism, plain and simple.

  4. #14
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falcarius View Post
    various accusations of nefariousness and hypocrisy ranging from laughably absurd to valid
    right back at ya, the release of the lockerbie bomber stands on it own (lack of) merits.

    As for the rest, you implied that the United States has no legitimate reason to be extremely angry at the UK/Scotland, and therefore "reasonable diplomatic action" on our part would presumably entail biting our tongues. You also compared those who suspect a certain degree of collusion between the Labour government and the SNP as the equivalent of 9/11 "truthers," when in fact the amount of evidence available coupled with obvious motives render credibility to such suspicions.

  5. #15
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Politically, this was a smart move. Goodwill gestures like this aren't anything new, and releasing terminally-ill prisoners is something Scotland does regularly. Letting this guy go to Libya to die, while strengthening the political and economic ties the British and Scottish governments have with Libya, is a win-win.
    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Not if it substantially damages relations between the UK and the United States
    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    .... which it won't. We've seen the reactions so far.
    Ahem...
    Who knew the fucker would take so long to die though?

    Meanwhile, Kenny and Jack politely decline the invitation to have their balls roasted.
    Jack says "It wasn't me! I was on holiday!"
    Salmond says "Fuck off, we don't answer to you! Fight your own war against BP."
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #16
    Member Stol11's Avatar
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    All this talk of whose fault it is isn't really important. I may point out that all these comments are based on the assumption that it was actually megrahi who was the mastermind behind the whole operation. To me it seems as if there was a need for a scapegoat and he filled it perfectly. The evidence itself is very weak, but as usual the US government will just assume that anyone who is caught is guilty.


    Here is a quote from an article from last year

    ''There were question marks too over Tony Gauci, a Maltese shopkeeper who was the only man to identify Megrahi.

    His evidence was that the Libyan, whom he picked out at an identity parade, had bought the clothes at his shop.

    But his police statements are inconsistent, and prosecutors failed to tell the defence that shortly before he attended an identity parade, Mr Gauci had seen a magazine article showing a picture of Megrahi, and speculating he might have been involved.

    Mr Gauci now lives in Australia, and according to defence claims is believed to have been paid several million dollars by the Americans for his evidence''

    BBC NEWS | UK | Scotland | Megrahi: 'A convenient scapegoat?'

  7. #17
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stol11 View Post
    All this talk of whose fault it is isn't really important.
    Are you suggesting that his release "on compassionate grounds" was actually tantamount to a confession of his innocence?
    Because I'd say that was pretty important.
    Not as important as the US trying to overrule the judicial system in places where it has no jurisdiction, but still, pretty important.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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