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  1. #71
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Compared to pre-Revolutionary Russia, Stalin's Soviet Union was a utopia. Even the GULAG wasn't that much of a strike against him - the Tsar just had his political opponents shot upon apprehension.

    Russia has been a nasty, brutish place for centuries. The Commies actually reversed that for the most part. As he mentioned, though, that was mostly a side effect of industrialization than it was any great advance of communism.

    This is completely untrue. I wouldn't want to live in Czarist Russia (I wouldn't want to live in Russia now), but Stalin committed atrocities far beyond anything Nicholas II ever dreamed. Do you realize how many people Stalin had slaughtered, imprisoned permanently, or exiled? How can anyone who has read any history claim that the Communists "reversed" the nastiness and brutality?
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  2. #72
    Senior Member millerm277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Compared to pre-Revolutionary Russia, Stalin's Soviet Union was a utopia. Even the GULAG wasn't that much of a strike against him - the Tsar just had his political opponents shot upon apprehension
    What?! Stalin killed over 3 million of his own citizens that we know of, most likely many more.
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  3. #73
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Libertarianism is the political philosophy that values free markets, free trade, less regulation, and so on. These elements are what enable things like the Industrial Revolution and the more recent revolution in agriculture to happen. Just think how much richer the world would be if crops were less subsidized than they are now. Especially Third World nations.
    And this is why I will never be a libertarian. You have heard of Enron, right?

    Give me one concrete example of deregulation or free trade being a good thing for society's advancement. I am not talking about more profits for stockholders or CEOs, but some advancement that didn't result in labor violations (human rights violations), or environmental destruction.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    And this is why I will never be a libertarian. You have heard of Enron, right?

    Give me one concrete example of deregulation or free trade being a good thing for society's advancement. I am not talking about more profits for stockholders or CEOs, but some advancement that didn't result in labor violations (human rights violations), or environmental destruction.

    How about the fact that the list of the 50 or so most economically free countries in the world is basically the list of the 50 richest countries in the world? Or how the price of airline travel fell precipitously after the Carter Administration deregulated the industry? Or the explosion of cable news networks and political talk radio after we scrapped the Fairness Doctrine? Or that you can use cellular phones and ATMs across oceans nowadays? Or the fact that I can drink South African wine with Thai food while watching a French film, and receiving a phone call on my Canadian-made phone (with a German-owned mobile company plan)? You've GOT to be joking.

    BTW, what the Enron executives did was ILLEGAL. It would STILL be illegal in a libertarian world. Don't pull that "libertarians are corporate apologists" bullshit.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #75
    . Blank's Avatar
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    +1.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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    -----------------
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  6. #76
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, actually, in Stalin's case, I'd ask, compared to what? Certainly Stalin could have done things better, much better, but the place he created was actually better to live in than the place that existed before him. This is all mainly thanks to industrialization.
    What I admire most about Stalin is how his system encouraged the shipment of some goods back and forth across the country. It wasn't about getting the goods to a destination. It was about building up those shipping statistics.

    I also love how they created millions of tons of bolts, literally. There might have been only 100 bolts made from the process, but those bolts were so big...impressive. Has any country put forward so much effort to make so much useless stuff?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    What I admire most about Stalin is how his system encouraged the shipment of some goods back and forth across the country. It wasn't about getting the goods to a destination. It was about building up those shipping statistics.

    I also love how they created millions of tons of bolts, literally. There might have been only 100 bolts made from the process, but those bolts were so big...impressive. Has any country put forward so much effort to make so much useless stuff?

    But everyone was guaranteed a job!
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #78
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    The term of "deregulation" is often misunderstood. By "deregulations" libertarians say just that they don't want to see the state disturb the nautural market's working by a fucking to tax/to spend way, subventions or regulations in order to encourage or discourage some activities. But libertarians don't say it should'nt be any rules, but just that the natural rules must'nt be perturbed by the artificial rules promoted by statist. The natural rules include respect for the contracts and struggle against the fraud, so Enron would be condemned for libertarians. By the way, struggle against the fraud is a legacy of te classical liberal cilisation, remember this.

    Elsewhere, I'm a market anarchist, and I often hear some things like "I don"t believe in libertarianism because I think peoples are not always able to do the good choices for themselves". I think it's rather wrong, I think peoples are able to take charge of themselves. But even if it would'nt be right I say "and so what?", even if it could be right, why a bureaucrat disconected of the reality would be able to do a better choice than the people himself? The truth is that peoples have a naturally limited reason, and the illusionary hope for a legalist or a planficator able to do the best and the most rational choice for every people by magic of the election is probably the most tragical error of the statist including socialist.

  9. #79
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    I have read that WWII in Europe was essentially a contest between Hitler and Stalin to see who could kill the most Russians.

  10. #80
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    BTW, what the Enron executives did was ILLEGAL. It would STILL be illegal in a libertarian world. Don't pull that "libertarians are corporate apologists" bullshit.
    I wasn't saying the above about libertarians, my concern was about the deregulation that allowed the fraud to occur in the first place.

    How do libertarians feel about anti-trust legislation?
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

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