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  1. #51
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Everyone speaks of balance, but it seems that balance means heading in only one direction. /jenocyde
    Once we get to social democracy (center-left), we'll stop! I swear!!!


  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You are so wrong on so many things that you should stop posting about libertarianism. BTW, New Zealand still ranks higher than the United States on Economic Liberty indices. All these left-wingers talk about Rogernomics having devastated this country, but the numbers don't bare that out. Their government was in shambles in the 1970s. They've been hit hard with the current recession, but GDP per capita has been trending upward for years.
    You always think things are about numbers when in fact it's about the lives of real, living, breathing human beings.

    I think that's the only way a person can hold fast to any sort of extremist ideology, is to be more concerned with theoreticals and tabulations than practical application and real impact upon citizens.

  3. #53
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    You always think things are about numbers when in fact it's about the lives of real, living, breathing human beings.

    I think that's the only way a person can hold fast to any sort of extremist ideology, is to be more concerned with theoreticals and tabulations than practical application and real impact upon citizens.
    Trust me, he's not concerned with numbers or logic either.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    That's not really true. The United States was the easily most libertarian country in the world between the Civil War and the New Deal/WWII. It's not as if we were doing poorly then. That was a time of unbelievable growth. As I pointed out earlier, Estonia has gone from being part of the most unlibertarian country in the world twenty years ago to being one of the most libertarian, and things are going generally well there, too.
    It was also a time of vicious poverty, child labor, extreme schisms between the rich and the poor, exploitation of rural whites and most blacks, widespread ignorance, and orphanages.

    Nobody in their right mind wants to go back to that.

  5. #55
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Mercury, where do you get these lists of most and least Libertarian countries?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  6. #56
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Mercury, where do you get these lists of most and least Libertarian countries?

    The Fraser Institute does an Economic Freedom of the World Report.

    The Economic Freedom of the World Project


    The Heritage Foundation and Wall Street Journal collaborate on the Index of Economic Freedom.

    Index of Economic Freedom: Link Between Economic Opportunity and Prosperity | The Heritage Foundation


    The State of World Liberty Index is a compilation of those two, along with Freedom House's rankings and Reports Without Borders' press freedom rankings:

    The State of World Liberty Project: Free People, Free Markets, Free Thought, Free Planet
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #57
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    It was also a time of vicious poverty, child labor, extreme schisms between the rich and the poor, exploitation of rural whites and most blacks, widespread ignorance, and orphanages.

    Nobody in their right mind wants to go back to that.

    Poverty was decreasing by leaps and bounds in that period. People went from subsistence farming to having wage-earning jobs. You think there was no child labor before industrialization? The children lucky enough to survive pre-Industrial Revolution were put to work in the fields at extremely young ages, doing backbreaking work. Also, we also still have widespread ignorance and orphanages in this country, so I don't see your point there. No one wants to go backward in time. The point is that the country made tremendous strides in that era specifically because it was so economically free. Your focus is totally out of whack.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #58
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    You always think things are about numbers when in fact it's about the lives of real, living, breathing human beings.

    I think that's the only way a person can hold fast to any sort of extremist ideology, is to be more concerned with theoreticals and tabulations than practical application and real impact upon citizens.

    First off, you're wrong. I use statistics to back my arguments (because, you know, that's what you do when debating things to make points), but I am far more concerned with practical applications. How do you explain the fact that minority poverty went DOWN after welfare reform forced many people formerly on the dole to seek out jobs?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #59
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Poverty was decreasing by leaps and bounds in that period. People went from subsistence farming to having wage-earning jobs. You think there was no child labor before industrialization? The children lucky enough to survive pre-Industrial Revolution were put to work in the fields at extremely young ages, doing backbreaking work. Also, we also still have widespread ignorance and orphanages in this country, so I don't see your point there. No one wants to go backward in time. The point is that the country made tremendous strides in that era specifically because it was so economically free. Your focus is totally out of whack.
    Yep, the industrial revolution brought an improvement in the quality of life. The industrial revolution only seems bad by today's standards. We don't even have statistics for how many people died (starved) due to subsistence farming. At the time, it was a great leap forward.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #60
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Err... We can debate about the industrial revolution all we want, but as a backdrop to that, I don't see the point, as I hardly think libetarianism can be given credit for it.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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