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  1. #41
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Libertarians want less government, not no government. I have found most critics operate under that erroneous assumption. This typically includes scaling back of military operations abroad, scaling back welfare programs and focusing more on targeted assistance, etc. Some Libertarians also believe in free health-care, which we'd be able to pay for if government bureaucracy was severely downsized and the budget eliminated of fluff.

    Government should serve as a public defender, and really nothing else.

    You should adopt a more open tone if you want to debate the topic intelligently rather than spout exaggerated nonsense, otherwise all you'll invite is nonsense in return. What you're describing is more like Anarchism.
    An intelligent post.

    Libertarianism and anarchism are not wide apart in philosophy.
    To hold is not to have.

  2. #42
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Libertarianism is essentially an outdated version of 19th century liberalism. Around the beginning of the 20th century, liberals began supporting a certain level of intervention as a response to the rise in private and corporate power and influence. The Sherman Antitrust Act and the Interstate Commerce Act of 1887 are early examples of the classic-to-modern liberalism shift.

    Libertarianism is no way to run a modern nation. Perhaps the largest shift towards libertarianism in the modern developed world was during The New Zealand Experiment (1984 - 1999), and it devastated their economic, social, and political system.

  3. #43
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    Libertarians want less government, not no government. I have found most critics operate under that erroneous assumption. This typically includes scaling back of military operations abroad, scaling back welfare programs and focusing more on targeted assistance, etc. Some Libertarians also believe in free health-care, which we'd be able to pay for if government bureaucracy was severely downsized and the budget eliminated of fluff.
    Most of the libertarian spectrum seeks to minimize the state and in some cases abolish it. Left-libertarians might support tax funded universal health care, but it really is antithetical to libertarianism at large.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    Limited government, not no government. I gladly pay taxes and I gladly accept services for those taxes - such as roads and protection.
    There are only so many public programs you can support until you're not a libertarian anymore.

    You don't really seem like a pure unregulated capitalism type person. And it sounds like you might be open to consumer and worker protections and a basic safety net.

    *is grooming you to be a future liberal*

  4. #44
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post

    There are only so many public programs you can support until you're not a libertarian anymore.

    You don't really seem like a pure unregulated capitalism type person. And it sounds like you might be open to consumer and worker protections and a basic safety net.

    *is grooming you to be a future liberal*
    hahaha, I am not a liberal, but no I don't believe in unregulated capitalism. I am not ok with government not protecting people from fraud, damaging products, and the like. That's what government is there for, protection - from foreign and domestic threats. The difference is that I don't believe that the *Federal* government should be so involved in local matters. Local rules should apply locally, with a general consesus, and one size does not fit all. This is why I like the state driver's license system. A child of 14 need not be able to drive in New York, but may need to drive a tractor down the road for gasoline when living and working on a desolate farm. Local governments make sense, and if you don't like the rules, you are free to leave. When local communities pay for their roads with local taxes, they should be able to define the guidelines for using that road. Seatbelt and helmet laws, etc... I feel the same way about public education. I am not a huge believer in the one size fits all system there either, if we are forced to have public education in the first place.

    As far as worker protection and safety nets, well, we'll leave that for a later date.

  5. #45
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Libertarianism is essentially an outdated version of 19th century liberalism. Around the beginning of the 20th century, liberals began supporting a certain level of intervention as a response to the rise in private and corporate power and influence. The Sherman Antitrust Act and the Interstate Commerce Act of 1887 are early examples of the classic-to-modern liberalism shift.

    Libertarianism is no way to run a modern nation. Perhaps the largest shift towards libertarianism in the modern developed world was during The New Zealand Experiment (1984 - 1999), and it devastated their economic, social, and political system.
    The Republican party has also deviated from its original structure. Socialism, Capitalism, Communism - nothing exists purely or in a bubble. I find it annoying that people hold Libertarianism to a standard that they don't set for other isms. Do you live in a purely Capitalistic society? No, of course not. Are you a pure Liberal? No, of course not.

  6. #46
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    hahaha, I am not a liberal, but no I don't believe in unregulated capitalism. I am not ok with government not protecting people from fraud, damaging products, and the like. That's what government is there for, protection - from foreign and domestic threats. The difference is that I don't believe that the *Federal* government should be so involved in local matters. Local rules should apply locally, with a general consesus, and one size does not fit all. This is why I like the state driver's license system. A child of 14 need not be able to drive in New York, but may need to drive a tractor down the road for gasoline when living and working on a desolate farm. Local governments make sense, and if you don't like the rules, you are free to leave. When local communities pay for their roads with local taxes, they should be able to define the guidelines for using that road. Seatbelt and helmet laws, etc... I feel the same way about public education. I am not a huge believer in the one size fits all system there either, if we are forced to have public education in the first place.

    As far as worker protection and safety nets, well, we'll leave that for a later date.
    Local based government made more sense a couple hundred years ago. We're in a globalist society and most everything is interconnected. Surely a good deal should be left to individual towns and cities. But as a nation, we are operating on a larger scale than we once were.

    NASA, Veterans Affairs, the FBI, the CIA, Medicare, Department of Education, the FDA, federal and state consumer protections etc. are needed.

    Slowly, but surely, you will move away from libertarian idealism and adopt a more pragmatic approach. You're not a lost cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    The Republican party has also deviated from its original structure. Socialism, Capitalism, Communism - nothing exists purely or in a bubble. I find it annoying that people hold Libertarianism to a standard that they don't set for other isms. Do you live in a purely Capitalistic society? No, of course not. Are you a pure Liberal? No, of course not.
    Center-leftism, American conservatism, social democracy, liberalism etc. -- all of these ideologies exist and are practiced in the real world. They aren't especially radical.

    Communism, libertarianism, pure capitalism, anarchy etc. -- these ideologies aren't relevant and don't show themselves in the real world very often. Not in the pure form or in any actual form.

  7. #47
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Slowly, but surely, you will move away from libertarian idealism and adopt a more pragmatic approach. You're not a lost cause.
    You are patronizingly cute. I pat you on the head, sweetie. Yes, we are operating on a larger scale - and that's the point. And you act as if local governments are not capable of interconnecting?

    With that, I am backing out of this thread. I am so tired of having to defend my beliefs, or people just spewing and not listening. But since you are one of the most reasonable of the bunch, if you are ever curious to *learn* some much needed information, please feel free to PM me.

  8. #48
    Minister of Propagandhi ajblaise's Avatar
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    Alright, well just one more thing...

    Quote Originally Posted by jenocyde View Post
    And you act as if local governments are not capable of interconnecting?
    They are. But the more local government works with state and federal government (which is needed so we can function) the more local sovereignty has to be given up.

    We can't have local governments doing their own thing and assure large-scale cooperation at the same time. A balance has to be struck.

  9. #49
    half mystic, half skeksis jenocyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Alright, well just one more thing...



    They are. But the more local government works with state and federal government (which is needed so we can function) the more local sovereignty has to be given up.

    We can't have local governments doing their own thing and assure large-scale cooperation at the same time. A balance has to be struck.
    Everyone speaks of balance, but it seems that balance means heading in only one direction. /jenocyde

  10. #50
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajblaise View Post
    Most of the libertarian spectrum seeks to minimize the state and in some cases abolish it. Left-libertarians might support tax funded universal health care, but it really is antithetical to libertarianism at large.



    There are only so many public programs you can support until you're not a libertarian anymore.

    You don't really seem like a pure unregulated capitalism type person. And it sounds like you might be open to consumer and worker protections and a basic safety net.

    *is grooming you to be a future liberal*


    You are so wrong on so many things that you should stop posting about libertarianism. BTW, New Zealand still ranks higher than the United States on Economic Liberty indices. All these left-wingers talk about Rogernomics having devastated this country, but the numbers don't bare that out. Their government was in shambles in the 1970s. They've been hit hard with the current recession, but GDP per capita has been trending upward for years.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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