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  1. #21
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Then again, true Communism, in Marx' view is unattainable because it pretty much goes against human nature (for its ultimate goal is to eliminate any and all discrimination.) It's truly a beautiful concept and ideal, but I recognize it as only being that--an ideal.

    I would say that post-revolutionary America was pretty damned close to being a Libertarian government, but my knowledge of true American history is pretty weak.
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  2. #22
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    There has to be a balance between practical application and idealism. I feel that libertarianism lacks that balance.

    For example, Marxism as proposed by Marx in the Communist Manifesto is too idealistic, too. Democratic socialism as it's practiced in Western Europe on the other hand seems to be working out pretty well for some countries.

    The only country that I've seen show the results of any sort of libertarian government was New Zealand, and the results were absolutely dismal.
    That's not really true. The United States was the easily most libertarian country in the world between the Civil War and the New Deal/WWII. It's not as if we were doing poorly then. That was a time of unbelievable growth. As I pointed out earlier, Estonia has gone from being part of the most unlibertarian country in the world twenty years ago to being one of the most libertarian, and things are going generally well there, too.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    Then again, true Communism, in Marx' view is unattainable because it pretty much goes against human nature (for its ultimate goal is to eliminate any and all discrimination.) It's truly a beautiful concept and ideal, but I recognize it as only being that--an ideal.
    I find communism to be one the most atrocious concepts and ideals ever formulated by man. And its application has been appropriately brutal and terrifying. And the ultimate goal is to end all discrimination? Try reconciling that with the fact that property holders are to lose everything by force up to and including murder under communism.


    I would say that post-revolutionary America was pretty damned close to being a Libertarian government, but my knowledge of true American history is pretty weak.
    You will hear lots of debates about this topic amongst libertarians. Radicals like Murray Rothbard has argued that Pennsylvania from about 1682-1700 was a functional anarcho-capitalist society, despite being nominally part of the British Empire. Some feel that the U.S. from 1800 or so through the Jackson Era was the most libertarian. Others (like myself) would argue that the most libertarian era (outside of the former Confederacy) was from the end of the Civil War to the early 1890s. However, there is almost no argument that the U.S. was the most libertarian (NOT anarchic) country in the world before Woodrow Wilson and FDR.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  4. #24
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    There are some aspects of the libertarian ideals that I fully support in regard to individual's rights (especially in regard to repealing past acts and victimless crimes). However, having worked most of my life with people in our society that are vulnerable, homeless, uninsured, etc., how are these individuals supported to get out of these vicious cycles? Is the concept of social safety nets inclusive with the libertarian philosophy?

    I am neither Dem. or Repub., just curious.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
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  5. #25
    Welcome to Sunnyside Mondo's Avatar
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    As a libertarian, I say that I only want government to do what is absolutely necessary- like protecting its people and ensuring that there is some kind of order.. not that we have to completely depend on the government for our rights and privileges.
    I'm not an anarchist by any means.
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  6. #26
    Branded with Satan murkrow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mondo View Post
    As a libertarian, I say that I only want government to do what is absolutely necessary- like protecting its people and ensuring that there is some kind of order.. not that we have to completely depend on the government for our rights and privileges.
    I'm not an anarchist by any means.
    What decides necessity?


    on topic:

    My politics (which are possibly more anarcho-capitalist than libertarian) are devised for efficiency. They trust a more reliable mechanism for creating happiness than an infinitely baloonable government run by popularity contest.

    It is not only on moral grounds that I consider the centrist ways flawed, they are simply unsupportable by any sound reasoning.

    The argument always falls back to "look around, this would all change in the free market." and "Don't fix what isn't broken" style comments, which demonstrate ignorance and personal apathy towards the situation respectively.
    wails from the crypt.

  7. #27
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    There are some aspects of the libertarian ideals that I fully support in regard to individual's rights (especially in regard to repealing past acts and victimless crimes). However, having worked most of my life with people in our society that are vulnerable, homeless, uninsured, etc., how are these individuals supported to get out of these vicious cycles? Is the concept of social safety nets inclusive with the libertarian philosophy?

    I am neither Dem. or Repub., just curious.

    They can be. However, libertarians generally believe that private charity is almost always more effective than government intervention. I know that Milton Friedman wrote a bit about a negative income tax that would guarantee a certain level of income for people, but I haven't read that particular writing. Generally, libertarians believe that public social safety nets should be temporary, conditional, and administered at the lowest possible level of government. Also, American history has shown that charitable donations increase when tax burdens decrease, and we have also seen that minority poverty has decreased after welfare reform in the mid-1990s.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #28
    Lasting_Pain
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    I have never really found the the libertarian view point actually attainable. The philosophy deals too much with the concept of "I" and the more I have aged, the more I have realized the importance of "we".

  9. #29
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lasting_Pain View Post
    I have never really found the the whole Liberian view point actually attainable. The philosophy deals too much with the concept of "I" and the more I have aged, the more I have realized the importance of "we".
    Well, truly, Liberia hasn't set the best example among nations, so I can see where you are coming from.

    EDIT: Okay, okay... it was corrected. Move along, nothing to see here.
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  10. #30
    Lasting_Pain
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, truly, Liberia hasn't set the best example among nations, so I can see where you are coming from.
    Lol, I am correcting that right now.

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