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  1. #241
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    wow this thread turned to shit fast.

    I never thought I'd say this, but I miss merc.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #242
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    "Professionals" are mostly middle class.

    Just an observation.
    Yeah, I know, that's why I clarified. I don't know exactly what is defined as "upper class", in the US. Here in Italy, most engineers and lawyers over 60 tend to become at the edge of "upper class", usually, since they get assigned more important project the more experience they have.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  3. #243
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Nope. You said people like me and Simulated. Check your own post, man.

    What's a thoughtful liberal? Someone who will listen to you yammer on about the superiority of the upper class without arguing with you?

    I'm tolerant of my Ron Paul worshipping friends IRL, too. Hell, I even wrote an entire paper about libertarianism and weighed the pros and cons of it. That's what disgusts me so much about it - the fact that I'm actually educated on the subject. If I were truly ignorant of libertarian principals, I might be more tolerant of it. As they say, ignorance is bliss!
    sure, you and simulated - little difference in this case.

    also, a thoughtful liberal is similar to a thoughtful conservative in that, they both are willing to recognize the subtleties of reality.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  4. #244
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    But I'm not black and white. That's just how you've pegged me in your imagination, as this person who "hates success." This estimation is the result of your own limited thinking, and not my actual personality.

    Your arguments are silly.
    shall i quote you again?

    if your posts here are not a true estimation of your thinking then simply admit to it, correct them and move on.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    shall i quote you again?

    if your posts here are not a true estimation of your thinking then simply admit to it, correct them and move on.
    Your perception is the problem, not my posts. Do you even understand the concept of perception? We all perceive things with a bias, you included. You've attempted to describe my personality from a few short posts, and when I quickly corrected you, you still insist that your premature, incorrect perception of me is valid.

    You can perceive me however you want. That is your business. Just don't fool yourself into believing you know what I think or who I am just because my opinions differ strongly from yours.

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    sure, you and simulated - little difference in this case.

    also, a thoughtful liberal is similar to a thoughtful conservative in that, they both are willing to recognize the subtleties of reality.
    You know when someone such as yourself uses my exact same arguments against me with no information to back it up, I assume that the conversation has disentigrated into a case of you saying, "nyah nyah, takes one to know one."

  7. #247
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    So you dodge the question. Impressive.

    How is a question a straw man? If you can give me a consistent pattern to the otherwise, then you'll be proven correct and me wrong. A straw man would be me quibbling over "where do you put the income voucher, you can't do that, because if someone makes a dollar more, then that's not fair". I attacked your argument full-on, philosophically. Quit being a coward and answer.
    The question is a straw man because there are implications behind it.

    All I see you doing is making ideological declarations and getting snippy when we don't accept them forthright. If you believe in something so goddamn much, defend it, or slither away in cowardice.
    The biggest flaws in my arguments is that I rely too much on anecdotal evidence, not that I make ideological declarations. If you're going to critique me, at least get it right.

    It wasn't a race bait; I know several people who moved from a rural school district to a suburban one because the people at the former were too "trashy". 90% White schools in both circumstances.

    You're completely missing the big picture here - it's not the distinguishing factor that's the issue, it's that people are distinguishing, and then making value judgments based on those distinguishments, in the first place.
    I'm not missing the big picture, I disagree with you. There's a difference.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #248
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Depends on a case-by-case basis. The constant is this - you don't get rich without exploiting someone else; that is, by paying them less than what you benefit for their utility. Wealth is only created from material goods - everything else is taking those goods and making them more useful. You get personally wealthy by convincing other people to do this for you.
    We're never going to agree because of the bolded statement above. What I see as voluntary economic exchange, you see as exploitation. You see entrepreneurs as superfluous (at best), where I see them as a fundamental component of a successful economy.

    Class bias. Only thing that makes them "better" is their greater status. Social Darwinism died out around the same time it was used to justify slaughtering millions in Eastern Europe.
    This doesn't make sense to me. Social darwinism is the idea that the weak should be allowed to die because they're weak. What does genocide have to do with this? Or do you honestly think the two are the same?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    We're never going to agree because of the bolded statement above. What I see as voluntary economic exchange, you see as exploitation. You see entrepreneurs as superfluous (at best), where I see them as a fundamental component of a successful economy.
    I don't see entepreneurs as superfluous, or even all of them as exploiting anyone. To categorize entepreneurs as one or the other is this faulty black and white thinking of which I speak. Some entepreneurs are fundamental components of a successful economy. Any intelligent person who opposes laissez faire capitalism but isn't a complete socialist either realizes that entepreneurs are necessary, and that much of business is voluntary economic exchange. But to praise all entepreneurs and not be aware that some of them, especially larger corporations, are exploiting others is voluntary blindness. This kind of voluntary blindness and refusal to oversee big business is the kind of extremism that led to the October 2008 crash.


    This doesn't make sense to me. Social darwinism is the idea that the weak should be allowed to die because they're weak. What does genocide have to do with this? Or do you honestly think the two are the same?
    Social darwinism is a red herring. Darwin himself didn't even propose such pseudo-intellectual, self-congratulatory idiocy. It has been long ruled out by better minds than anyone arguing here. To mention it is parallel to arguing that Santa Claus is real.

  10. #250
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Your perception is the problem, not my posts. Do you even understand the concept of perception? We all perceive things with a bias, you included. You've attempted to describe my personality from a few short posts, and when I quickly corrected you, you still insist that your premature, incorrect perception of me is valid.

    You can perceive me however you want. That is your business. Just don't fool yourself into believing you know what I think or who I am just because my opinions differ strongly from yours.
    it doesn't get anymore black and white than some of the things you've put into this thread. if you can't see that than you're as blind as those you rail against - blind to the other side of the argument.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

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