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  1. #211
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    you obviously missed the part of the argument that stated all things being equal. what this means is, a good and moral person who is successful in their field would be a better influence than a good and moral person who is a complete failure.

    although, with your complete bias against successful people i imagine it's difficult for you see wealth as anything but the manifestation of evil.

    and so, while you snicker and sneer at all the people "exploiting" the poor with gainful employment, i'm going to be working to provide my family with a better life than i had.
    Oh please. "You just hate successful people" is the standard nonsense given here and it's about as effective as upper middle class white college kids whining that they don't have a White History Month. (HINT: Perspective.)

    Do you have any actual points besides fabricating imaginary prejudices in your opponents?

    You must be quite the Glenn Beck fan.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #212
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Oh please. "You just hate successful people" is the standard nonsense given here and it's about as effective as upper middle class white college kids whining that they don't have a White History Month. (HINT: Perspective.)

    Do you have any actual points besides fabricating imaginary prejudices in your opponents?

    You must be quite the Glenn Beck fan.
    it's no secret and certainly not imaginary that some posters in this forum are unwilling to admit any good can come of self-interest, capitalism, large corporations and the like.

    and, it wasn't until i gained some perspective of my own (i.e. living on my own, paying taxes, paying my own rent, running my own business, etc.) that i came to appreciate the above.

    now, i can't pretend to understand the background of said posters, but i can gain an understanding of their motivating principles after reading enough of their responses.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  3. #213
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    it's no secret and certainly not imaginary that some posters in this forum are unwilling to admit any good can come of self-interest, capitalism, large corporations and the like.

    and, it wasn't until i gained some perspective of my own (i.e. living on my own, paying taxes, paying my own rent, running my own business, etc.) that i came to appreciate the above.

    now, i can't pretend to understand the background of said posters, but i can gain an understanding of their motivating principles after reading enough of their responses.
    Uh huh, and that suggests to me that it's unlikely you'll ever gain any appreciation for the plight of someone in a truly shitty life situation due to factors entirely beyond his control.

    Cause hey, I'm doing all right for myself, so anybody who's not CLEARLY isn't working hard enough and BOOT STRAPS BOOT STRAPS BOOOOOOT STRAAAAAPSSSSSS!!!

    That's like saying everyone should be able to do equally well no matter what hand he's been dealt. It's a ridiculous fantasy; there are such things as involuntary and uncontrollable unfortunate circumstances and they do happen to people, whether or not your parochial little "OMG I'M A YOUNG ABLE WHITE MALE AND I'M DOING FINE SO WHY ISN'T EVERYONE????" mindset wants to admit it.

    I hope you see why that's so terribly short-sighted.

    (P.S., no, marmalade doesn't hate successful people and it's childish and ridiculous that you'd imply that.)

    ((P.P.S., it sure is funny how everyone's answer to "How hard should we work?" is conveniently, "Exactly as hard as I work, no more and no less"--anyone who's doing worse than you is lazy and anyone doing better is cheating. It swings both ways, doesn't it?))
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  4. #214
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Uh huh, and that suggests to me that it's unlikely you'll ever gain any appreciation for the plight of someone in a truly shitty life situation due to factors entirely beyond his control.

    Cause hey, I'm doing all right for myself, so anybody who's not CLEARLY isn't working hard enough and BOOT STRAPS BOOT STRAPS BOOOOOOT STRAAAAAPSSSSSS!!!

    That's like saying everyone should be able to do equally well no matter what hand he's been dealt. It's a ridiculous fantasy; there are such things as involuntary and uncontrollable unfortunate circumstances and they do happen to people, whether or not your parochial little "OMG I'M A YOUNG ABLE WHITE MALE AND I'M DOING FINE SO WHY ISN'T EVERYONE????" mindset wants to admit it.

    I hope you see why that's so terribly short-sighted.

    (P.S., no, marmalade doesn't hate successful people and it's childish and ridiculous that you'd imply that.)

    ((P.P.S., it sure is funny how everyone's answer to "How hard should we work?" is conveniently, "Exactly as hard as I work, no more and no less"--anyone who's doing worse than you is lazy and anyone doing better is cheating. It swings both ways, doesn't it?))
    what are you even talking about?

    you're doing the exact thing you accused me of doing here, chief.

    the original idea i'm responding to is that the average joe is, on the whole, more noble than the rich joe. and i introduced the idea that being rich, while it provides opportunity for ill, also provides opportunity for good. edit: and that, in terms of making oneself better-off, it is better to come under the influences of those who are themselves better-off (provided they are of good moral character).

    you and marmalade, it would seem, are bent on painting people adding other perspectives to this conversation (ones that don't fit your world view) as greedy, closed-off, short-sighted bastards.

    just like i don't know your story, you sure as hell don't know mine. and try as you might to guess it based on my skin color, age, background, you just don't know.

    i like your spirit though, very agitated, very angsty.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  5. #215
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    what are you even talking about?

    you're doing the exact thing you accused me of doing here, chief.

    the original idea i'm responding to is that the average joe is, on the whole, more noble than the rich joe. and i introduced the idea that being rich, while it provides opportunity for ill, also provides opportunity for good.

    you and marmalade, it would seem, are bent on painting people adding another perspective to this conversation as greedy, closed-off, short-sighted bastards.

    just like i don't know your story, you sure as hell don't know mine. and try as you might to guess it based on my skin color, age, background, you just don't know. edit: and that, in terms of making oneself better-off, it is better to come under the influences of those who are themselves better-off (provided they are of good moral character).

    i like your spirit though, very agitated, very angsty.
    Oh please, as if you didn't directly imply with your "I GOT PERSPECTIVE MYSELF THROUGH HONEST HARD WORK" comments that people in serious economic trouble are somehow not working hard enough.

    That's virtually always the implication with Libertarian rhetoric...well, that and ludicrous accusations that anybody economically to the left of Ron Paul somehow "hates successful people", the implication there being that they're trying to punitively take your money away because it's assumed that success = cheating.

    In reality, however, the reason the government is taxing your money for social programs is because children eating/going to school/having clothes, medical research, scientific progress and a number of other causes are bigger priorities than keeping your nominal income tax rate within a margin that your arbitrary Libertarian ideals find acceptable.

    If you want to be an island, go move to an island. You live in a representative democracy, now suck it up and pay your damn taxes, and vote for someone else next time.

    Taxation is not an implication that you cheated; it's just the only place to get money for basic humanitarian causes that no individual has the time, funding, or inclination to pursue privately. It's not "Let's punish successful people for being evil"; it's ok, "Okay, sorry guys, but there's nowhere else to get money to solve these problems."

    And yet paranoid schizophrenic Libertarians/conservatives swear up and down that government is unjustly "punishing" them and that proponents of such policy "hate successful people."

    How hilariously myopic.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  6. #216
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Oh please, as if you didn't directly imply with your "I GOT PERSPECTIVE MYSELF THROUGH HONEST HARD WORK" comments that people in serious economic trouble are somehow not working hard enough.
    you might have read it that way, but i assure you i completely understand the roles circumstance and luck play in people's fortunes. that is why *temporary* social safety nets are a good thing. permanent ones, on the other hand, people should be weary of.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    That's virtually always the implication with Libertarian rhetoric...well, that and ludicrous accusations that anybody economically to the left of Ron Paul somehow "hates successful people", the implication there being that they're trying to punitively take your money away because it's assumed that success = cheating.

    In reality, however, the reason the government is taxing your money for social programs is because children eating/going to school/having clothes, medical research, scientific progress and a number of other causes are bigger priorities than keeping your nominal income tax rate within a margin that your arbitrary Libertarian ideals find acceptable.

    Taxation is not an implication that you cheated; it's just the only place to get money for basic humanitarian causes. It's not "Let's punish successful people for being evil"; it's ok, "Okay, sorry guys, but there's nowhere else to get money to solve these problems."
    no, i don't believe all taxes are automatically "stealing" or "cheating." however, tax payers must automatically be weary of those assigned to spend tax dollars. how easy is it to play on people's emotions to try and fund this program or that program? do i want to see children homeless in the streets without proper clothing for winter? of course not. i also don't want to see the whales go extinct. the problem arises when we start saying to ourselves that *everything* can/needs to be done with tax money. it's extremely easy to forget/ignore how much we pay in taxes and how those taxes effect the economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    And yet paranoid schizophrenic Libertarians/conservatives swear up and down that government is unjustly "punishing" them and that proponents of such policy "hate successful people."

    How hilariously myopic.
    what *i* am saying is that those with apparent bias against the well-off seem that way because i haven't seen them admit the good that can come of wealth.

    the government, i believe, doesn't mean to "punish" anyone. some politicians do, however, seem content to ignore economic repercussions of their actions.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  7. #217
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    I don't recall marmalade having said anything to imply that she finds economic success/wealth to be inherently bad.

    In fact I don't recall anyone that I've ever personally spoken to saying that, ever, in my entire life. That's ridiculous.

    If you don't want to come off as a dumb conservative, don't tell people they hate successful people.


    Also:

    The only way to get anything done without government taxpayer money is if a private citizen feels a personal moral obligation to do so.

    Clearly this does happen sometimes, but it's another gaping hole in Libertarian philosophy to pretend that this can be relied upon consistently to solve all or even most problems--it can't. Investors invest in things that show profit, not in things that won't show any direct benefit to them for decades (like medical or other scientific research.)

    The fact is, there are important causes that no individual is both willing and able to work on, and government is the only remaining entity able to do so. If liberals hold an erroneous belief that successful people are all evil, then conservatives surely hold a similarly erroneous belief that government is inherently bad. Why is government inherently bad?

    Merc posted an article here by a Libertarian earlier who argued that Obama is doing a bad job because "most Americans don't want the programs he's instituting." I think this is a mistake by assuming that popular opinion is always right, because it's not. (Not to mention, most Americans voted for him despite his clearly gigantic governmental expansion plans...this tells me Americans probably just aren't fucking paying attention to who they're voting for and why.)

    If people could secretly vote for a tax cut for all white people without anyone knowing how they voted, I bet it'd pass--but that doesn't make it fair. Most private citizens simply always vote in whatever way they believe is in their own self-interest, and pretending otherwise is a naive mistake that Libertarians seem to use to account for all kinds of problems in their philosophy.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #218
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    The upper-class wouldn't exist without the middle and working classes. Without people to step on, they'd have to scrub their toilets themselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    I don't recall marmalade having said anything to imply that she finds economic success/wealth to be inherently bad.

    In fact I don't recall anyone that I've ever personally spoken to saying that, ever, in my entire life. That's ridiculous.

    If you don't want to come off as a dumb conservative, don't tell people they hate successful people.
    i never said anyone "hates" successful people. i did say that marmalade has a bias against the wealthy. just as you might say i have a bias for the well-off.

    i, however, am willing to admit that not all wealthy people are well-meaning and are entirely capable of negatively affecting society. that is why i qualify my posts with statements like, "provided they are of good moral character."

    edit: and in response to marmalade, without the business owners to *create* the jobs, there wouldn't be a toilet to scrub.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  9. #219
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    i never said anyone "hates" successful people. i did say that marmalade has a bias against the wealthy. just as you might say i have a bias for the well-off.

    i, however, am willing to admit that not all wealthy people are well-meaning and are entirely capable of negatively affecting society. that is why i qualify my posts with statements like, "provided they are of good moral character."

    edit: and in response to marmalade, without the business owners to *create* the jobs, there wouldn't be a toilet to scrub.
    Wow, really? So what you're saying is a successful economy involves both producers and consumers?

    You should write a textbook!



    Quote Originally Posted by miked277
    although, with your complete bias against successful people i imagine it's difficult for you see wealth as anything but the manifestation of evil.

    and so, while you snicker and sneer at all the people "exploiting" the poor with gainful employment, i'm going to be working to provide my family with a better life than i had. /self-righteousness
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #220
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Wow, really? So what you're saying is a successful economy involves both producers and consumers?

    You should write a textbook!





    your post speaks for itself.

    also, it's considered bad form to edit quoted text (and i'm not talking about the bolded parts). although, i suppose it depends on how serious you want to be taken.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

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