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  1. #201
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It's irrelevant because that's not what is being discussed here. Your attempt at a straw man argument has failed.
    So you dodge the question. Impressive.

    How is a question a straw man? If you can give me a consistent pattern to the otherwise, then you'll be proven correct and me wrong. A straw man would be me quibbling over "where do you put the income voucher, you can't do that, because if someone makes a dollar more, then that's not fair". I attacked your argument full-on, philosophically. Quit being a coward and answer.

    This is flawed since this is never the situation parents face.
    No, but it is demonstrating a point - that quality of education is not the only distinguishing factor between public and private education.

    More bullshit. All I see is you making up hypothetical situations to try to prove your point.
    All I see you doing is making ideological declarations and getting snippy when we don't accept them forthright. If you believe in something so goddamn much, defend it, or slither away in cowardice.

    Race bait, I won't bite.

    Individuals don't change, but generations, as a whole, have different perspectives than previous generations.
    It wasn't a race bait; I know several people who moved from a rural school district to a suburban one because the people at the former were too "trashy". 90% White schools in both circumstances.

    You're completely missing the big picture here - it's not the distinguishing factor that's the issue, it's that people are distinguishing, and then making value judgments based on those distinguishments, in the first place.

  2. #202
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    I wasn't trying to insinuate anything about you, so sorry if it came across that way. I was trying to insinuate something about the United States in general - that things common to the poor and working classes are generally seen as "bad influences", and that things common to the upper-middle and upper classes are "good influences". Why driving an old beater is killing the environment, while a private jet is an unavoidable, acceptable expense of business, even though the latter spews exponentially more pollution into the atmosphere.
    rich doesn't automatically equate to evil and poor/middle-class doesn't automatically equate to noble. that rich person, while polluting more, also pays more taxes, probably donotes more to charity and has created more jobs than the "regular joe." so which one contributes more to the greater good?

    indeed, if you were to send your son away for the better part of his childhood, which type of person would you want to see when he turns 18: the type who can generate wealth, create jobs, provide comfortable lives for his family and for his aging parents or would you want an average, run-of-the-mill boy working a dead end 9-5 job, who has trouble making ends meet and occasionally needs to borrow money from his retired parents?

    it's not that the poor/middle-class are bad influences, it's that upper-class are better influences (all else being equal).

    i want the best possible life for my (future) children. if that means them learning from those more successful than me, then that is what i will try for. i certainly don't want my children learning how to be paupers, how to flip burgers, how to be mediocre, how to sell drugs, etc. i want them to learn how to do more than just survive; i want them to learn how to thrive. and some classes of people are, very simply, better at thriving than others.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  3. #203
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    rich doesn't automatically equate to evil and poor/middle-class doesn't automatically equate to noble. that rich person, while polluting more, also pays more taxes, probably donotes more to charity and has created more jobs than the "regular joe." so which one contributes more to the greater good?
    Depends on a case-by-case basis. The constant is this - you don't get rich without exploiting someone else; that is, by paying them less than what you benefit for their utility. Wealth is only created from material goods - everything else is taking those goods and making them more useful. You get personally wealthy by convincing other people to do this for you.

    indeed, if you were to send your son away for the better part of his childhood, which type of person would you want to see when he turns 18: the type who can generate wealth, create jobs, provide comfortable lives for his family and for his aging parents or would you want an average, run-of-the-mill boy working a dead end 9-5 job, who has trouble making ends meet and occasionally needs to borrow money from his retired parents?
    That dead-end 9-5 in a past time was more productive than anything, if it was in a factory. You don't have to get me started on the service economy - there's no pride in constantly having to whore yourself out to others to make ends meet. That's what was meant by taking pride in a job.

    it's not that the poor/middle-class are bad influences, it's that upper-class are better influences (all else being equal).

    i want the best possible life for my (future) children. if that means them learning from those more successful than me, then that is what i will try for. i certainly don't want my children learning how to be paupers, how to flip burgers, how to be mediocre, how to sell drugs, etc. i want them to learn how to do more than just survive; i want them to learn how to thrive. and some classes of people are, very simply, better at thriving than others.
    Class bias. Only thing that makes them "better" is their greater status. Social Darwinism died out around the same time it was used to justify slaughtering millions in Eastern Europe.

  4. #204
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    I find that Libertarians often view the world in terms of black-and-white numbers and statistics, when the reality of real human experience is in shades of gray. Most Libertarians shy away from those shades of gray arguments because human reality isn't their strong suit.
    Err, what?
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Te = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ne = 16[][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fi = 15 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
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    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  5. #205

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    Question for the libertarians here who would have supported McCain over Obama; or Bush over Gore.

    Do you think Glenn Beck is a libertarian? He says he is, but do you think he fits your definition of libertarian?

  6. #206
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    it's not that the poor/middle-class are bad influences, it's that upper-class are better influences (all else being equal).

    This is so wrong and hilarious that it's almost touching.:crazy: So Paris Hilton is obviously a better influence than a college professor? Lindsay Lohan is a great role model for young girls because she's wealthy?

    The upper-class wouldn't exist without the middle and working classes. Without people to step on, they'd have to scrub their toilets themselves.

    I call this a completely bullshit strawman argument you've put forth here , but thanks for the laughs, dude.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    Err, what?
    Well, one fine user makes preposterous black and white falacious arguments such as:

    t's not that the poor/middle-class are bad influences, it's that upper-class are better influences (all else being equal).

    Yet another says that the national average for all teachers is around fifty grand, so that means all teachers in the country are fairly paid.

    Still yet another claims that the thought that an intelligent child might not test well "bullshit" when anyone who knows anything about education and intelligence realizes that it's extremely common for what he has called "hypothetical bullshit" to happen.

    Looks like really unrealistic black and white thinking to me, and those are just three quotes. I've seen much more like this all over the place spouting from the mouths of professed libertarians. And Objectivists are the worst. There's nothing more extremely black and white "I don't live on planet Earth with other human beings" insanity than Objectivism.

    Libertarianism seems like a non-academic form of Ivory Tower Syndrome.

  8. #208
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    ^ Yup, there's a reason nobody votes for it.

    Libertarians would tell you that's just because it's TOO ADVANCED for the common man, and PEOPLE DON'T GET IT!

    lol. No, it's just a totally impractical wet dream, just like socialism.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  9. #209
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    This is so wrong and hilarious that it's almost touching.:crazy: So Paris Hilton is obviously a better influence than a college professor? Lindsay Lohan is a great role model for young girls because she's wealthy?

    The upper-class wouldn't exist without the middle and working classes. Without people to step on, they'd have to scrub their toilets themselves.

    I call this a completely bullshit strawman argument you've put forth here , but thanks for the laughs, dude.
    you obviously missed the part of the argument that stated all things being equal. what this means is, a good and moral person who is successful in their field would be a better influence than a good and moral person who is a complete failure.

    although, with your complete bias against successful people i imagine it's difficult for you see wealth as anything but the manifestation of evil.

    and so, while you snicker and sneer at all the people "exploiting" the poor with gainful employment, i'm going to be working to provide my family with a better life than i had.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

  10. #210
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Depends on a case-by-case basis. The constant is this - you don't get rich without exploiting someone else; that is, by paying them less than what you benefit for their utility. Wealth is only created from material goods - everything else is taking those goods and making them more useful. You get personally wealthy by convincing other people to do this for you.
    case by case, yes.

    however, if someone is willing to work for that wage, that is an admission either that they cannot find work to pay more or that they are unwilling to do so. granted, some employers can monopolize the market for certain employees, in large part there is still room for choice.


    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Class bias. Only thing that makes them "better" is their greater status. Social Darwinism died out around the same time it was used to justify slaughtering millions in Eastern Europe.
    better-off, i should say. money might not be able to buy happiness, but it doesn't hurt.
    I'm feeling rough, I'm feeling raw, I'm in the prime of my life.

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