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  1. #181
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    So where does all that charity come from?

    You don't seem to have addressed that part.
    Which part? I just started a new job. Been checking in to see the latest posts.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #182
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Which part? I just started a new job. Been checking in to see the latest posts.
    Go back and read the long post I made to you here. You only addressed the parts about average teacher salaries, and none of the rest.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  3. #183
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katsuni View Post
    Yes.

    In japanese culture, students WANT to learn. It's of great disgrace to do poorly in school. Unlike in the states, where yeu'll get yelled at maybe, or grounded, YEU GET DISOWNED.

    There's a massive emphasis culturally on holding up a family name and providing honour to those they are related to. This's a massive change in mode of thought to our own on the west side of things, where we're more individualistic.

    The short form is though, that schoolwork for the kids is treated like life and death, if they do bad, they make their parents look bad, and it's stressed culturally from birth that they HAVE to respect their parents to an intense degree, far moreso than we hold here.

    DUe to that, they want to actually learn and get better.

    In the states? Kids go to school because they have to, primarily, not because they want to.

    Therein lies yeur biggest difference.
    Yeah but it's not like the Japanese way sounds that good either. There's an enormous pressure on the student.

    Anyway, there seems to be lot of problems with healthcare and education in the US, while their publicity is kind of taken for granted here in Europe, and our results are not that bad either (well, Southern Italy's are awful, but thankfully usually the statistics are separated). I suppose that if I were an US taxpayer and saw that my money was so inefficiently utilized, I would also promoted exclusive private ownership of school & healthcare.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  4. #184
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    And vouchers are a very insidious way to subsidize private education for wealthier people, and chip away at funds needed to reform public education.
    The rich have always been able to send their children to whichever school they choose, and they always will be. But if you're so worried about this being a conspiracy by the rich to steal from the poor, put an income cap on vouchers. It's that simple. The people I have known who are most often in favor of vouchers are from middle class families that live in crappy school districts that can't afford to send their children to private schools, not the rich.

    The idea that this would "chip away at funds needed to reform public education" makes me roll my eyes because I think vouchers are the only catalyst that could spark a reform in the foreseeable future (there would be an exodus of children from the public school system). The fact that so many people desperately want their children out of the public school system demonstrates how poorly the system performs. The US doesn't spend less than other countries on education. What that tells me is that the US doesn't need to spend more money, rather, the system is fundamentally flawed.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #185
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The rich have always been able to send their children to whichever school they choose, and they always will be. But if you're so worried about this being a conspiracy by the rich to steal from the poor, put an income cap on vouchers. It's that simple. The people I have known who are most often in favor of vouchers are from middle class families that live in crappy school districts that can't afford to send their children to private schools, not the rich.

    The idea that this would "chip away at funds needed to reform public education" makes me roll my eyes because I think vouchers are the only catalyst that could spark a reform in the foreseeable future (there would be an exodus of children from the public school system). The fact that so many people desperately want their children out of the public school system demonstrates how poorly the system performs. The US doesn't spend less than other countries on education. What that tells me is that the US doesn't need to spend more money, rather, the system is fundamentally flawed.
    What in the history of humanity leads you to think that wealthy people wouldn't hoard all quality educational materials were they given the opportunity?

    People want their kids out of public schools because private schools are a class signifier. It's only the worst of public schools that give a substantially lower-quality education, and that's usually due to lack of parental involvement, by far the greatest variable in educational performance. Parents who invest substantial amounts of money in their children's education generally invest many other resources as well, resources that due to the rigors of the working class (for example, lack of time), lower-income parents often don't have.

    It's not always a purely rational decision, either. Do you think all those parents in Mississippi had their kids transfer to private schools after integration because they were concerned with the quality of education their children were receiving?

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Their pay may be distributed equally throughout the year, but they still don't have to work during the summer.
    What exactly do you mean that they don't "have" to work during the summer? Because I know plenty of teachers who wait tables part-time or do other work to supplement income during the summer because they can't get by. Plus you're again not taking into account that even the ones who truly don't have to work during the summer, whether because of senority pay, marriage, or roommates(?), still have to take graduate level classes and/or do re-certification in the summer.

  7. #187
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Which part? I just started a new job. Been checking in to see the latest posts.
    He directly said it was about charity. Besides, you bring up this point all of the time that I've witnessed, not just in that one post. So are you avoiding the question?

  8. #188
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    What in the history of humanity leads you to think that wealthy people wouldn't hoard all quality educational materials were they given the opportunity?
    What a loaded and irrelevant question. Most funding for public schools comes from property taxes and no one has suggested that property taxes be abolished. How about you try to stay reasonable rather than hyperbolic.

    People want their kids out of public schools because private schools are a class signifier. It's only the worst of public schools that give a substantially lower-quality education, and that's usually due to lack of parental involvement, by far the greatest variable in educational performance. Parents who invest substantial amounts of money in their children's education generally invest many other resources as well, resources that due to the rigors of the working class (for example, lack of time), lower-income parents often don't have.
    Bullshit. That's the rationalization you use to justify your belief. I have first-hand knowledge of many people where this is not the case. In fact, I have never met a single person where this was the reason they wanted their children out of public school. Should I assume you have studies that prove your point?

    As for parental involvement being the greatest variable, that's true, but the current system has failed to be a positive influence in that respect. Perhaps if parents had a choice on where to send their children to school, they might feel more invested in it.

    It's not always a purely rational decision, either. Do you think all those parents in Mississippi had their kids transfer to private schools after integration because they were concerned with the quality of education their children were receiving?
    Different era/not applicable
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #189
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    What in the history of humanity leads you to think that wealthy people wouldn't hoard all quality educational materials were they given the opportunity?

    People want their kids out of public schools because private schools are a class signifier. It's only the worst of public schools that give a substantially lower-quality education, and that's usually due to lack of parental involvement, by far the greatest variable in educational performance. Parents who invest substantial amounts of money in their children's education generally invest many other resources as well, resources that due to the rigors of the working class (for example, lack of time), lower-income parents often don't have.

    It's not always a purely rational decision, either. Do you think all those parents in Mississippi had their kids transfer to private schools after integration because they were concerned with the quality of education their children were receiving?
    What makes you think that your average upper class person has more time than a middle class worker. Often they have less time. To your average Dr. or lawyer the 60 hr work week is a pipe dream. The only portion of the upper class that has more time than those of the middle class are people that either, a) worked insanely hard to rise high enough in upper management that they are making discretionary choices on company policy and don't need to be in the office all the time to fulfill the requirements of their position, or b) have inherited wealth and are a general drain on society. Situation b) is the only legit justification I have ever seen for the demonization of the upper class. The thing about those in the upper class is that there is usually a reason they are making so much. This answer is most often that they work harder than others. While there is a portion of the upper class that was born into wealth, this portion is small enough that it is statistically insubstantial.

    My dad gets up at 5am every morning and doesn't get home till about 7pm. He works occasionally on saturdays, and has flown home from family vacations to deal emergencies involving his patients. He's been doing this sense he finished school at 28, he is now 54.

    Sorry to get sidetracked.

    What in the history of humanity makes you think that the wealthy will hoard educational resources? Considered logically, the wealthy keeping the poor from having access to quality education makes no sense. Where are all the skilled professionals going to come from that I will someday want to hire? A rising tide lifts all ships, and education (the great equalizer) is one of the most important common denominators the American public has.

    I went to an academic magnate public high school where I was an IB student (International Baccalaureate). The only things that made the public HS experience bearable were my friends, the great teachers within the IB program, and the fact that my HS was a magnate school with an IB program which received a larger portion of state funding than other lesser public schools.

    However, we never had money, new books, enough teachers, qualified teachers (in the honors program), enough class rooms (went to many classes in double wide trailers), enough security (had wallet stolen from the lockeroom by ghetto neighborhood kids while in gym class, got in fights [generally for own protection or protection of my smaller friends] with neighborhood kids), and the list goes on and on. If this sounds like an ideal learning situation I've got property rights to the moon that I'd like to sell you.

    The funny thing is that when I graduated from HS, my school was the #3 public HS in the nation according to NewsWeek. If this is what happens at the #3 public school in the country, I'd hate to see whats going on at other schools.

    Personally, I think vouchers could introduce legitimate competition into our school system. As it stands now, there are rich schools and poor schools. We need to fill the gap between the two, and end public educational policies that inhibit any of these from performing to the utmost of their capacity. Until we have legitimate competition for public schools (ie functional competitively priced alternative options), we will continue to operate a system where public schools have no incentive to really improve the quality of education they provide. It's only when competitors threaten to drive public schools out of business, that public schools will be forced to increase the quality of their product.

  10. #190
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    What exactly do you mean that they don't "have" to work during the summer? Because I know plenty of teachers who wait tables part-time or do other work to supplement income during the summer because they can't get by. Plus you're again not taking into account that even the ones who truly don't have to work during the summer, whether because of senority pay, marriage, or roommates(?), still have to take graduate level classes and/or do re-certification in the summer.
    Have to in that the school does not force them to teach in order to earn their salary. Their salary is based on the 9-month school year. What else could I have meant? At no point did I mention living expenses, so why bring that up as part of my argument?

    Lots of professionals have to continue their education. Teachers are not a special case. I wish they were paid more, but to say they should get paid like doctors, as a previous poster mentioned, is absurd. Perhaps if the system was more efficient there would be more money to pay teachers, perhaps at the level of engineers.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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