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  1. #101
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    To further prove my point. here are quotes from these "libertarians" in the link YOU provided. Many of them are former Bush supporters who were embarrassed and realized Obama was far more aligned with their libertarian ideals. .I didn't read them all, and just grabbed the first guys listed but I don't see any of these esteemed libertarians agreeing with you on McCain...
    So everyone who voted for Bush is a Republican, but not everyone who voted for Obama is a Democrat. Do you not see the logical inconsistencies of your argument? Or do you just ignore them?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #102
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Meanlittlechimp just needs to take a second to shut the fuck up. His argument that MOST libertarians are just Republicans with grudges is completely unfounded.

    Spoilers: Most libertarians would be considered "independents:" people who don't subscribe to the libertarian party, but believe in libertarian ideals.
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    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  3. #103
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blank View Post
    Meanlittlechimp just needs to take a second to shut the fuck up. His argument that MOST libertarians are just Republicans with grudges is completely unfounded.

    Spoilers: Most libertarians would be considered "independents:" people who don't subscribe to the libertarian party, but believe in libertarian ideals.
    He's arguing that most claimed "libertarians" are actually conservatives trying to rehabilitate their image.

    Ron Paul, for example, is an evangelical Christian, and certainly has views informed by this:

    The notion of a rigid separation between church and state has no basis in either the text of the Constitution or the writings of our Founding Fathers. On the contrary, our Founders political views were strongly informed by their religious beliefs. Certainly the drafters of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution, both replete with references to God, would be aghast at the federal governments hostility to religion. The establishment clause of the First Amendment was simply intended to forbid the creation of an official state church like the Church of England, not to drive religion out of public life.


    The Founding Fathers envisioned a robustly Christian yet religiously tolerant America, with churches serving as vital institutions that would eclipse the state in importance. Throughout our nations history, churches have done what no government can ever do, namely teach morality and civility. Moral and civil individuals are largely governed by their own sense of right and wrong, and hence have little need for external government. This is the real reason the collectivist Left hates religion: Churches as institutions compete with the state for the peoples allegiance, and many devout people put their faith in God before their faith in the state. Knowing this, the secularists wage an ongoing war against religion, chipping away bit by bit at our nations Christian heritage. Christmas itself may soon be a casualty of that war.
    While not a specific policy position, this generally doesn't jive with most libertarians' views on religion and state (strictly separated, with little to no interaction between the two). This is why Paul is better qualified as a conservative with a wide libertarian streak than an pure libertarian.

    What seems to drive the confusion is that most libertarians in the common American forum seem to be contrarians before anything - they'd rather point out where your policy disagrees with their ideology than work to promote the commonalities to their best interests. There's no real interest in coalition-building, which given Duverger's law, isn't going to get you very far in our particular system.

  4. #104
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    He's arguing that most claimed "libertarians" are actually conservatives trying to rehabilitate their image.
    And that is clearly false.


    Ron Paul, for example, is an evangelical Christian, and certainly has views informed by this:



    While not a specific policy position, this generally doesn't jive with most libertarians' views on religion and state (strictly separated, with little to no interaction between the two). This is why Paul is better qualified as a conservative with a wide libertarian streak than an pure libertarian.

    Libertarians believe in what the Constitution has to say about religion and the state: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. . ." That is not a "strict separation." Most libertarians I know are agnostics or atheists, but a few are very much evangelical Christians, and that is fine. Ron Paul isn't perfect (his views on immigration in particular aren't very libertarian), but he is easily the most libertarian politician in the federal government.


    What seems to drive the confusion is that most libertarians in the common American forum seem to be contrarians before anything - they'd rather point out where your policy disagrees with their ideology than work to promote the commonalities to their best interests. There's no real interest in coalition-building, which given Duverger's law, isn't going to get you very far in our particular system.
    Or maybe it's not being "contrarian" so much as being an ideologically-based movement that values principles more than coalition-building? Libertarians get more done through think tanks, public appearances, economic writing, and personal persuasion than they do at the ballot box. That's OK. When the government fails, politicians actually listen sometimes. They usually co-opt and water down libertarian ideas, but they get some play. One of the few things I actually liked about Dubya was that he had made an attempt to reform Social Security, including partial privatization. That took some balls.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  5. #105
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Claimed schmaimed. I guarantee you there are more independent libertarians than old republicans trying to regain notoriety.

    The Ron Paul grass roots movement, if anything, makes a good argument for my point.
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    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  6. #106
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    One of the few things I actually liked about Dubya was that he had made an attempt to reform Social Security, including partial privatization. That took some balls.
    No, that was just stupid. Take a look at Chile's policy of privatization and ask the seniors there if they like it.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  7. #107
    . Blank's Avatar
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    Speaking of Social Security, our social security numbering system needs a major fucking revamp. I'm too lazy to post an intriguing article I found that states how fucking easy it is to get your SSN if you were born after '88, due to medical records and shit.
    Ti = 19 [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][]
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    Si = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Ni = 12 [][][][][][][][][][][][]
    Se = 11[][][][][][][][][][][]
    Fe = 0

    -----------------
    Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
    Man got to sit and wonder why, why, why;
    Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
    Man got to tell himself he understand

  8. #108
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    No, that was just stupid. Take a look at Chile's policy of privatization and ask the seniors there if they like it.

    Chile's social security reform was a brilliant idea that has had problems in execution. Let me ask you this question: if you had been able to opt out of Social Security at age 18, would you have? I know I would have, and so would have many people I know. It is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the current system going without cutting benefits/raising the retirement age/raising the contribution percentage. The numbers just do not work, and they will never work in a pay-as-you-go system.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #109
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Chile's social security reform was a brilliant idea that has had problems in execution. Let me ask you this question: if you had been able to opt out of Social Security at age 18, would you have? I know I would have, and so would have many people I know. It is IMPOSSIBLE to keep the current system going without cutting benefits/raising the retirement age/raising the contribution percentage. The numbers just do not work, and they will never work in a pay-as-you-go system.
    This subject deserves a thread all to itself; count me in the "affirmative" category to your question. And while its going to be bad here, imagine the pain most of Europe is going to be in a few years from now; high life expectancy coupled with an extremely low birth-rate alongside pay-as-you-go welfare systems equal disaster.

  10. #110
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    This subject deserves a thread all to itself; count me in the "affirmative" category to your question. And while its going to be bad here, imagine the pain most of Europe is going to be in a few years from now; high life expectancy coupled with an extremely low birth-rate alongside pay-as-you-go welfare systems equal disaster.
    Europe is going to have some serious issues unless they open their borders to floods of immigrants, which they will probably do...which will then cause more social unrest since most Europeans are only tolerant when analyzing other peoples' situations.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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