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  1. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Provide some evidence for this (baseless) claim.
    It's obvious because before the disastrous Bush administration, I met a fair amount of smart republicans (who were small government), and openly admitted to being republican, even in highly liberal environments like NYC.

    Now they're so embarrassed of their former party, they no longer identify themselves republicans. They call themselves libertarians; so they don't get laughed out of the room.

    If you haven't had that experience, it just means your too young to have witnessed the shift.

    I called myself a libertarian even when I voted for Clinton. My smart republican friends agreed with me on a small government, free trade stance. They just didn't realize that the right's military spending would dwarf anything the dems would do in office. They were fiscal conservatives back then, they just didn't get that military spending far outstrips any social spending from the left.

    As for civil rights or social issues - no libertarian could ever consider the republican party seriously without vomiting..... yet I constantly see these new so called "libertarians" rail on about Obama being a facist or communist or other assanine nonsense.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    It's obvious because before the disastrous Bush administration, I met a fair amount of smart republicans (who were small government), and openly admitted to being republican, even in highly liberal environments like NYC.

    Now they're so embarrassed of their former party, they no longer identify themselves republicans. They call themselves libertarians; so they don't get laughed out of the room.

    If you haven't had that experience, it just means your too young to have witnessed the shift.
    I've actually been a "movement" libertarian for 12-13 years now, since about the time of the Clinton-Dole presidential race. I don't see nearly as much of this phenomenon as you seem to. Bob Barr basically did what you are talking about and became LP member (and presidential candidate; and I still hate that I voted for him, because there was really no one else).


    I called myself a libertarian even when I voted for Clinton. My smart republican friends agreed with me on a small government, free trade stance. They just didn't realize that the right's military spending would dwarf anything the dems would do in office. They were fiscal conservatives back then, they just didn't get that military spending far outstrips any social spending from the left.

    As for civil rights or social issues - no libertarian could ever consider the republican party seriously without vomiting..... yet I constantly see these new so called "libertarians" rail on about Obama being a facist or communist or other assanine nonsense.

    So you just have anecdotal evidence? In my experience with people who have been libertarians for 20+ years, they started out as non-socialist hippie liberals, but realized how much the government fucks things up (hating both LBJ and Nixon, the draft, etc.) and became libertarians. Some of them supported Reagan, some didn't (the supporters generally were quickly disillusioned). Others really got into Ayn Rand and it started from there. I don't know many Johnny-come-lately libertarians, outside of some of the Ron Paul crew. A lot of those people weren't nearly so political before he gained in popularity, either. Don't paint all libertarians with the same brush.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #93

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    For example, do you not believe that this person is actually a republican without a fancy new name? He's started posts over at intpcentral about his libertarianism (after he got banned here). Here are some of the first posts that pop after searching for Obama and McCain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    You are a communist idealist, like Obama, if you weren't aware of that. So, your support of him was rather logical all along.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I wouldn't be caught dead at a party with a liberal vegetarian Obama flag waving fuck like you anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Flak View Post
    I'll be voting for McCain, mostly because I hate democrats with furious passion. Have fun trying to talk me out of that.

    I've debated him over there recently and it's pretty clear he's just a republican - with a new vague term - libertarian. It's more than obvious.

    I've seen the same arguments from these so called libertarians not just on forums, but in person; and it's more than common. They're the same conservatives that used to call themselves republican before they attached themselves to some abstract concept; to shield themselves the ridicule of what the word republican implies, today, to anyone with a brain

  4. #94

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    Just because I voted for Obama doesn't mean I'm not libertarian but I think more of his views eschew what libertarianism is. That is small government and civil liberties and individual freedom.

    You even admitted yourself, you would favor McCain over Obama slightly.

    As a libertarian, can you tell me what about McCain supports libertarian ideals? He said he would increase military spending (the largest gov't expenditure by far) and thus increase the size of government.

    In regards to civil rights - it's more than clear that the democrats support libertarian ideals far more than the right (with the exception of gun control). Just look at McCarythism, the Drug War, Patriot act etc etc. No real libertarian will debate which party is more aligned with them on this.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    Just because I voted for Obama doesn't mean I'm not libertarian but I think more of his views eschew what libertarianism is. That is small government and civil liberties and individual freedom.

    You even admitted yourself, you would McCain over Obama slightly.

    As a libertarian, can you tell me what about McCain supports libertarian ideals? He said he would increase military spending (the largest gov't expenditure by far) and thus increase the size of government.
    He doesn't really support libertarian ideals. I registered as a Republican specifically to vote for Ron Paul and against John McCain in the primaries. I would only have preferred him to Obama marginally because I don't like having one party control the White House and both houses of Congress. I would think the first seven months of the Obama Administration have provided ample evidence to support that view.

    BTW, "eschew" means "shun or void," so you are saying that Obama is actually less libertarian than McCain is.


    In regards to civil rights - it's more than clear that the democrats support libertarian ideals far more than the right (with the exception of gun control). Just look at McCarythism, the Drug War, Patriot act etc etc. No real libertarian will debate which party is more aligned with them on this.
    Well, you've hit upon some funny examples here. First of all, McCarthy was a bad dude. A drunken, wild-eyed demagogue. However, there was a major infiltration of the federal government by Communists during the FDR and Truman Administrations. That is a fact. Civil rights were definitely trampled, but there is nothing wrong with trying to root out spies and traitors. Secondly, many Democrats are just as hardcore for the Drug War as Republicans. Obama's staff wants to get away from using the term "War on Drugs," but he is very much against even marijuana decriminalization. As for the PATRIOT Act, well, every Democrat in the Senate that voted supported it except for Russ Feingold. There was token opposition in the House and that was nice, but I really don't rely on Democrats to be pro-civil liberties. Besides, how can you consider yourself pro-civil liberties when your voting records consistently go against the First, Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    For example, do you not believe that this person is actually a republican without a fancy new name? He's started posts over at intpcentral about his libertarianism (after he got banned here). Here are some of the first posts that pop after searching for Obama and McCain.

    I've debated him over there recently and it's pretty clear he's just a republican - with a new vague term - libertarian. It's more than obvious.

    I've seen the same arguments from these so called libertarians not just on forums, but in person; and it's more than common. They're the same conservatives that used to call themselves republican before they attached themselves to some abstract concept; to shield themselves the ridicule of what the word republican implies, today, to anyone with a brain
    Calling yourself a libertarian doesn't make you one. There are certain beliefs that have to be held or you simply are not one.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    First of all, McCarthy was a bad dude. A drunken, wild-eyed demagogue. However, there was a major infiltration of the federal government by Communists during the FDR and Truman Administrations. That is a fact. Civil rights were definitely trampled, but there is nothing wrong with trying to root out spies and traitors.
    Whatever, it was grossly exaggerated. Most of the communist fear mongering is identical to the terrorist fear mongering led by...... guess which party? The fact you're trying to legitimize it, only shows your republican tendencies.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Secondly, many Democrats are just as hardcore for the Drug War as Republicans.
    You can't be serious. It's obvious which party is far more responsible this. Nixon coined the phrase war on drugs. Reagan kicked it into extra high gear (and you probably think pretty highly of him too).

    You probably also think he's small government when he cranked our debt levels to the highest since WWII and borrowed 70% of our GDP. I often hear pseudo libertarians bring up Reagan, completely oblivious, to the actual numbers of his "small" government.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    As for the PATRIOT Act, well, every Democrat in the Senate that voted supported it except for Russ Feingold. There was token opposition in the House and that was nice, but I really don't rely on Democrats to be pro-civil liberties.
    It might have had something to do with intentional lies spread by the Bush administration about WMDs and other nonsense.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Calling yourself a libertarian doesn't make you one. There are certain beliefs that have to be held or you simply are not one.
    I think I've stated why Obama has exhibited more libertarian principles than the other option, McCain.

    You, on the other hand, still haven't stated what about McCain is libertarian, although you supported him over Obama. Which further proves my point that many libertarians; are really republicans in disguise.

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Also, Welch here claims to be supporting Bob Barr in the 2008 Election. I would imagine he'd have voted for Obama if he had lived in a swing state (because he has hated John McCain for years), but he lives in Washington, D.C., so he knew it was going to be an Obama landslide.


    Who's Getting Your Vote?: reason's 2008 presidential poll - Reason Magazine
    To further prove my point. here are quotes from these "libertarians" in the link YOU provided. Many of them are former Bush supporters who were embarrassed and realized Obama was far more aligned with their libertarian ideals. .I didn't read them all, and just grabbed the first guys listed but I don't see any of these esteemed libertarians agreeing with you on McCain.

    Who's Getting Your Vote?
    Reason's 2008 presidential poll


    Ronald Bailey
    1. Who are you voting for in November? Obama. The Republicans must be punished and punished hard.

    2. Who did you vote for in 2004 and 2000? George W. Bush and George W. Bush. I am disheartened and ashamed.

    Peter Bagge
    1. Who are you voting for in November? If the polls in my home state are close: Obama (McCain is simply too incompetent these days to be president). If not, I'll make a protest vote for Barr.

    2. Who did you vote for in 2004 and 2000? In 2004: John Kerry (I wanted to fire Bush). In 2000: Harry Browne.

    Radley Balko
    1. Who are you voting for in November? Bob Barr. He's the first serious candidate the LP has run since I've been eligible to vote.

    2. Who did you vote for in 2004 and 2000? Kerry in 2004.Bush in 2000.

    Bruce Bartlett
    1. Who are you voting for in November? I plan to vote for Obama mainly because he is not a Republican and not John McCain, who is temperamentally unfit to be president.

    2. Who did you vote for in 2004 and 2000? I voted for Bush, but I regret it. I voted for him because I couldn't vote for Kerry, but would not vote at all if I had it to do over.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    Whatever, it was grossly exaggerated. Most of the communist fear mongering is identical to the terrorist fear mongering led by...... guess which party? The fact you're trying to legitimize it, only shows your republican tendencies.
    The #3 man in the State Department (Alger Hiss) was a spy for the Soviet Union. There was a serious Communist infiltration of the federal government. The average American circa-2009 most likely underestimates the influence they had. It was no excuse for railroading people, but it did happen. Hiss, the Rosenbergs, Hede Massing, Lawrence Duggan, Noel Field, Harold Ware, the list goes on.

    List of Soviet agents in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    You can't be serious. It's obvious which party is far more responsible this. Nixon coined the phrase war on drugs. Reagan kicked it into extra high gear (and you probably think pretty highly of him too).
    I am serious. Nothing changed under Carter or Clinton, and Obama's nominee for drug czar is a former police chief who says marijuana "has no medical benefit."


    [QUOTE}You probably also think he's small government when he cranked our debt levels to the highest since WWII and borrowed 70% of our GDP. I often hear pseudo libertarians bring up Reagan, completely oblivious, to the actual numbers of his "small" government.[/QUOTE]

    And you probably don't know what the hell you're talking about. You should go back and read some of my older posts. Reagan QUADRUPLED the budget deficit. He did some good things, but he was not a libertarian, no matter how many times he was photographed The Freeman. Now you're just embarrassing yourself.


    It might have had something to do with intentional lies spread by the Bush administration about WMDs and other nonsense.
    They still went along and they didn't have to. They do not get a pass.


    I think I've stated why Obama has exhibited more libertarian principles than the other option, McCain.

    You, on the other hand, still haven't stated what about McCain is libertarian, although you supported him over Obama. Which further proves my point that many libertarians; are really republicans in disguise.
    I didn't support McCain. I voted for Ron Paul in the primary AGAINST him, and for Bob Barr in the general election. I only marginally wanted him in over Obama because, as I've stated before, I did not want one party controlling the White House and both houses of Congress. That is usually the prescription for massive government growth, and that fear has been founded. It happened under six years of GOP control, and it's happening again now.


    Are we clear now?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by meanlittlechimp View Post
    To further prove my point. here are quotes from these "libertarians" in the link YOU provided. Many of them are former Bush supporters who were embarrassed and realized Obama was far more aligned with their libertarian ideals. .I didn't read them all, and just grabbed the first guys listed but I don't see any of these esteemed libertarians agreeing with you on McCain.

    Who's Getting Your Vote?
    Reason's 2008 presidential poll


    Ronald Bailey
    1. Who are you voting for in November? Obama. The Republicans must be punished and punished hard.

    2. Who did you vote for in 2004 and 2000? George W. Bush and George W. Bush. I am disheartened and ashamed.

    Peter Bagge
    1. Who are you voting for in November? If the polls in my home state are close: Obama (McCain is simply too incompetent these days to be president). If not, I'll make a protest vote for Barr.

    2. Who did you vote for in 2004 and 2000? In 2004: John Kerry (I wanted to fire Bush). In 2000: Harry Browne.

    Radley Balko
    1. Who are you voting for in November? Bob Barr. He's the first serious candidate the LP has run since I've been eligible to vote.

    2. Who did you vote for in 2004 and 2000? Kerry in 2004.Bush in 2000.

    Bruce Bartlett
    1. Who are you voting for in November? I plan to vote for Obama mainly because he is not a Republican and not John McCain, who is temperamentally unfit to be president.

    2. Who did you vote for in 2004 and 2000? I voted for Bush, but I regret it. I voted for him because I couldn't vote for Kerry, but would not vote at all if I had it to do over.

    First of all, Peter Bagge didn't even vote for Bush, so I don't see why he's on there. Secondly, Radley Balko voted for Bush once, then voted against him. That certainly does not make one a "former Republican." This doesn't even ask party affiliation. And YOU brought up Matt Welch, who didn't vote for either McCain or Obama. What is your point?

    P.S. Bruce Bartlett is hardly a libertarian.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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