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  1. #61
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You're going to run into problems here, though. As an American, we don't believe in these things just for us. If you believe in free markets, civil liberties, the rule of law, etc., you don't just believe in them for Americans because we're special or lucky. Classical liberalism holds that all humans deserve these things.
    Damn straight. The worst that can be said about our "worldview" on these matters is that we sometimes fail to recognize when the enabling conditions (culture, institutions, etc) are insufficient to sustain the implementation of such universal values. That, however, is a matter of pragmatics rather than worldview.

  2. #62
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You're going to run into problems here, though. As an American, we don't believe in these things just for us. If you believe in free markets, civil liberties, the rule of law, etc., you don't just believe in them for Americans because we're special or lucky. Classical liberalism holds that all humans deserve these things.
    Not everyone wants them though, or at least in the same way that you want them.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiltyred View Post
    Why does that amaze you? We don't need another language. Not everyone has the time and money (or interest) to travel outside the US. Another language for us is a luxury, not a necessity. We're not all rich and we don't all have liberal arts educations. Besides, as has been pointed out, everybody speaks English.
    In every other industrialized country, most people are at least bilingual even if they will never leave their country or use it for anything else. Europeans tend to know at least 3 in my experience.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Take Christianity, for example. When a Christian begins to impose their ideology/way of being/living upon others who don't share the same worldview, those that are imposed upon usually go HEY WTF I am a good and decent human and I don't need your version of what's good and true and right forced upon me.
    There's the issue of inculturation in regards to Christianity.

  5. #65
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Not everyone wants them though, or at least in the same way that you want them.

    And that is fine, but Americans are not under any onus to act if that mindset should be celebrated. You HAVE to be able to say that some things are "better than." Unilaterally imposing things on people is wrong, but it also would be wrong to say that Americans (or anyone for that matter) should have to treat viewpoints that are repulsive to them as if they were equally valid.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #66
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You're going to run into problems here, though. As an American, we don't believe in these things just for us. If you believe in free markets, civil liberties, the rule of law, etc., you don't just believe in them for Americans because we're special or lucky. Classical liberalism holds that all humans deserve these things.
    Which is why it's subject to the deficiencies of any ideology. Both fascists and communists felt that all humanity deserved the blessings of their ideologies, though those were more collectivist in their orientation. All three ideologies (fascism, communism, liberalism) have resulted in great benefits and great suffering.


    Who's gaming the system?
    China, whose cultural identity is very collectively-oriented, being one of the capitalist powerhouses of the world.

    I would disagree about that to an extent. A lot of what is important about capitalism lies within the moral/ethical realms.
    I'd disagree with that characterization. The whole point of capitalism is that there is no moral or ethical component. Matters of morals or ethics are settled through the aggregate effect of ambition countering ambition, that is, the invisible hand. It's one of the main assumptions of Smithian capitalism - that all are rational actors pursuing their self-interest.

  7. #67
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 01011010 View Post
    In every other industrialized country, most people are at least bilingual even if they will never leave their country or use it for anything else. Europeans tend to know at least 3 in my experience.
    I really wish I was bilingual. Where I live, the public school system has French-immersion schools available to every child (learn everything in French, except English Language Arts). My parents chose to send me to the English school, where we took French class, but ultimately were never fluent. I happened to go to a smaller private school for junior high/high school, where the French immersion educated kids had "smart French" classes where they wrote essays etc., and we took "dumb French" classes. In this small school, the "dumb French" teacher was one of those truly-off-the-rocker humans, so I avoided taking it. In retrospect I wish I had braved jumping into it in university, but it would've really pummeled my GPA.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  8. #68
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Not everyone wants them though, or at least in the same way that you want them.
    And we recognize that (that's why we have institutional-as well as cultural (i.e. individualism)-safeguards against the "tyranny of the majority". That doesn't mean we are going to accept blatantly illiberal worldviews as equally valid.

    Edit: Man, I need to learn how to type faster.
    Last edited by lowtech redneck; 08-10-2009 at 09:27 PM. Reason: self-evident

  9. #69
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    There's the issue of inculturation in regards to Christianity.
    "Inculturation" is not in my Canadian Oxford Dictionary. (Um, seriously.)
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  10. #70
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Which is why it's subject to the deficiencies of any ideology. Both fascists and communists felt that all humanity deserved the blessings of their ideologies, though those were more collectivist in their orientation. All three ideologies (fascism, communism, liberalism) have resulted in great benefits and great suffering.
    Fascism and communism didn't really result in great benefits. They were outright disasters.


    China, whose cultural identity is very collectively-oriented, being one of the capitalist powerhouses of the world.
    Hopefully, the rise of a private sector-based bourgeoisie will encourage more responsive and liberal government there.


    I'd disagree with that characterization. The whole point of capitalism is that there is no moral or ethical component. Matters of morals or ethics are settled through the aggregate effect of ambition countering ambition, that is, the invisible hand. It's one of the main assumptions of Smithian capitalism - that all are rational actors pursuing their self-interest.
    I completely disagree. You think there is no moral or ethical component of capitalism? What about the right to private property? Are our rights just based on utilitarianism? I should hope not.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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