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  1. #91
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    No.
    Oh. Well, that's weird. I always thought intelligence and open-mindedness were the opposite of ignorance and closed-mindedness.


    Quote Originally Posted by Antisocial one View Post
    Would you care to explain this in more detail ?
    Well, specifically, I seem to find various degrees of extremely provincial, right-wing, ego-centric, biased, old-fashioned, nationalistic views more frequently among American members than among those from most other countries. People from other countries seem to start at a more reasonable "baseline," if you will. The best evidence of this is the Metric system. The fact that Americans still cling to the old system is very telling about about our lack of intelligence/openness, and destructive reification of tradition.

    Then again, this might simply be because we're encountering the members of those countries that were open-minded enough to learn our language and come to talk to us. Not the closed-minded ones that refuse to learn any other language or interact with Americans. I'm sure there are a few of them.

  2. #92
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    The best evidence of this is the Metric system.
    Adopting the metric system would be a huge pain in the ass, and not doing so when one doesn't need to is an imminently rational decision.

  3. #93
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    And maybe it's partly that even our lowly and ignorant have the money to travel and get on the internet.

  4. #94
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    Adopting the metric system would be a huge pain in the ass, and not doing so when one doesn't need to is an imminently rational decision.
    the scientific quotient of the US already uses it.

    the metric system itself is more rational! inches to feet to miles? I seriously doubt most americans know how many feet are in a mile and measuring fractions of an inch for precision cutting is odd.

    Regarding the general thread, the geographic isolation of america obviously makes the fact that so many americans are ignorant of the rest of the world easy. However, very few strive to even visit canada or mexico. I agree that there is plenty in america itself to see, however, only concerning the nature. Throughout my life, I've lived on both coasts and my family came from flyover country. We drove everywhere to visit. Havent been absolutely everywhere, but have visited about 38 states. There are some slight regional differences, but all in all, a foreign vistor could go to most any city or town and get a fairly representative impression of most any other city or town. Which state is The simpsons' Springfield supposed to be set in?


    however, europe is not some perfect and enlightened place. I know tons of germans that do not speak english very well. Perhaps they instead learned french, or russian, depdning when and what half of thecountry they grew up in, but plenty of them cannot even speak german very well. Still, Most europeans are indeed aware of the world outside their home country. It is largely due ot how small much smaller the countries are. Germany is about the same land mass as california. It is very common for packaged foot to be printed with label containing many languages. Certain ubiquitous fruits or vegetables grow in specific climates.

    america should be more internationally aware, especially concerning the foreign trade deficit. So many products taken for granted do not originate in the states. Plywood? The better grades come from around the baltic sea. Oil? Texas, california, and alaska do not supply the nation with energy. Diamonds are not mined near cleveland. Personal electronics are not manufactured in denver. and so on. That customer dervice is now being exported should be an even bigger reason for maericans to pay attention to intl issues. Not everyone can be an actor or musician, music, film and television being one of hte only cultural exports, and unfortunately, what is exported is generally terrible.

  5. #95
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    :1377:

    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  6. #96
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post
    the metric system itself is more rational! inches to feet to miles? I seriously doubt most americans know how many feet are in a mile and measuring fractions of an inch for precision cutting is odd.
    The metric system itself is more rational, but adopting it wouldn't be. Most Americans know how far a mile is in practical rather than academic terms, and most skilled workers involved with precision cutting have years of practice working and thinking in terms of our system. The records and infrastructure all revolve around the existing system. The disruption and aggravation that would be caused by switching over just isn't worth it. This is also why most former colonies of France and Portugal have not switched over to English as their official language of international communication; the costs outweigh the benifits.

  7. #97
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy were spending so much money on defense and heavy industry that it was bound to stimulate their economies in the short term. That cannot last. The Soviet Union's economy was consistently much smaller than that of the United States and other Western capitalist nations. Also, the "Business Plot" was never even proven to be real.
    Umm, most academics generally agree it was there. It never got beyond its inchoate state once Butler objected, but it was there. Most corporate leaders were in favor of fascism at that time, anyway.

    Heavy industry is where you get wealth from in the first place. It's rather redundant to say that it wouldn't last - it has generally been the countries that don't have heavy industry that tend to lag behind economically.

    The Soviet Union also had much fewer people to distribute its goods to, not to mention much heavier costs of production due to high wages for primary industry. Then again, they did get to space before the West.

    That is abhorrently flippant. Both of those countries were nearly destroyed by those fanatics.
    Umm, no. It's what happened. Italy was a joke before the Fascists, with everyone wondering why the rest of the continent could do so well and Italy consistently be so far behind. Germany went from being completely broken to the world's premier industrial power relative to its size in about five years.

    World War II was going to happen no matter what - the world's situation was such that it was practically guaranteed. Hell, WWII was a continuation of WWI in a large sense.

    1) None of those dictators started out as "neoliberals"; and 2) yes, eventually things got better.
    Pinochet was installed precisely because he was a neoliberal - the term has very little to do with "liberalism" as we know it in the US. Things generally got better when democratization movements gained strength. Meanwhile, 300,000 were disappeared in the process.

    If you believe that you have a natural right to acquire property and that it cannot be taken away from you without due process of law, how is that not moral? And no, the idea of private property being moral does NOT break down with the example of chattel slavery in any way, shape, or form if you believe in self-government. Another human being cannot be made property against his or her will. That is fundamental.
    Not moral. Just an agreement we've made among ourselves in our country's particular social contract. One hundred years ago, that belief only applied to white men in this country, and it was a radical position to suggest that it was right for things to be otherwise. We changed our agreement over the course of the century to where due process and equal protection applied to everyone.

    Not everyone agrees with us on this. If your belief structure maintained that a nation was required to maintain a strict hierarchy to satisfy God, how can you say that we're right and they're wrong on moral terms?

    That is complete nonsense. You think that the Founding Fathers meant that "it works best for people to have these capabilities in our society" when they wrote about "unalienable rights?" What part of "unalienable" is misunderstood there?
    Come on, you know that was window dressing to assert the legitimacy of high treason against the British Crown. If you really think that we declared independence based on ideals, that's a little naive on your part.

  8. #98
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    If you really think that we declared independence based on ideals, that's a little naive on your part.
    It's not naive. I can't help thinking maybe you have not studied early American literature. Nothing if not idealist, and it was not all propaganda. No one could be that cynical.

  9. #99
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Umm, most academics generally agree it was there. It never got beyond its inchoate state once Butler objected, but it was there. Most corporate leaders were in favor of fascism at that time, anyway.
    Where do you get this stuff? I'd like to see your statistics for both of those claims. I wouldn't argue that no one wanted to get FDR out of office (especially after he tried to pack the Supreme Court and run for a third term in office), but tales of an actual conspiracy have relied on individual testimony and hearsay. And "(m)ost corporate leaders were in favor of fascism at that time?" That's an outlandish claim.


    Heavy industry is where you get wealth from in the first place. It's rather redundant to say that it wouldn't last - it has generally been the countries that don't have heavy industry that tend to lag behind economically.
    Is it? The United States has gotten far richer since most of our heavy industry has left. Free trade, an educated populace, and domestic demand are where you create economic growth, which in turn makes the people wealthier.


    The Soviet Union also had much fewer people to distribute its goods to, not to mention much heavier costs of production due to high wages for primary industry. Then again, they did get to space before the West.
    1) Getting to space doesn't matter at all in this context; 2) the American GDP per capita was significantly higher than the Soviet Union's; 3) the median American worker was far wealthier than the median Soviet; and 4) the Soviet Union had a higher population than the United States. What in the world are you talking about?


    Umm, no. It's what happened. Italy was a joke before the Fascists, with everyone wondering why the rest of the continent could do so well and Italy consistently be so far behind. Germany went from being completely broken to the world's premier industrial power relative to its size in about five years.
    The United States still outperformed Germany in the 1930s. West Germany's economy was eons ahead of Nazi Germany's when it came to sustainable growth. Italy had a similar "economic miracle" after WWII. Heavy industry infrastructure is not the only or even main reason why. How would you explain Ireland going from the Third World of Europe to richer per capita than the United States in two generations?


    World War II was going to happen no matter what - the world's situation was such that it was practically guaranteed. Hell, WWII was a continuation of WWI in a large sense.
    Not necessarily so. First of all, WWI didn't need to happen. The Treaty of Versailles didn't need to be so punitive. The Great Depression needn't have been so extreme and so long-lasting. A lot of things could have gone differently.



    Pinochet was installed precisely because he was a neoliberal - the term has very little to do with "liberalism" as we know it in the US. Things generally got better when democratization movements gained strength. Meanwhile, 300,000 were disappeared in the process.
    The military junta that ousted Allende (with our help) wasn't neoliberal to start. Many of them were state capitalists. Pinochet himself was convinced of the value of opening up the Chilean economy AFTER the coup, when he read El Ladrillo. His reforms met with some resistance within the military leaders, and it led to piecemeal reforms through the late-1970s. And way to assume that I don't know what "neoliberal" means. You don't know with whom you are dealing here.


    Not moral. Just an agreement we've made among ourselves in our country's particular social contract. One hundred years ago, that belief only applied to white men in this country, and it was a radical position to suggest that it was right for things to be otherwise. We changed our agreement over the course of the century to where due process and equal protection applied to everyone.
    One hundred years ago, women and minorities could own property. Get your facts straight.


    Not everyone agrees with us on this. If your belief structure maintained that a nation was required to maintain a strict hierarchy to satisfy God, how can you say that we're right and they're wrong on moral terms?
    You still can. You can believe whatever you want. That doesn't make you right.


    Come on, you know that was window dressing to assert the legitimacy of high treason against the British Crown. If you really think that we declared independence based on ideals, that's a little naive on your part.
    They walked the walk on those ideals for the most part. More than I can say for the scumbags in power right now.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  10. #100
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Oh. Well, that's weird. I always thought intelligence and open-mindedness were the opposite of ignorance and closed-mindedness.
    Not really; the opposite of ignorance is knowledge, not intelligence.

    Intelligence is ability to learn; ignorance is simply lack of knowledge.

    There are intelligent people who are ignorant because their cultural surroundings have not taught them much knowledge.




    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Well, specifically, I seem to find various degrees of extremely provincial, right-wing, ego-centric, biased, old-fashioned, nationalistic views more frequently among American members than among those from most other countries. People from other countries seem to start at a more reasonable "baseline," if you will. The best evidence of this is the Metric system. The fact that Americans still cling to the old system is very telling about about our lack of intelligence/openness, and destructive reification of tradition.
    That's ubiquitously true the whole world over. You only notice it more here because you live in the US and you don't see or talk to the average citizen from other countries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Then again, this might simply be because we're encountering the members of those countries that were open-minded enough to learn our language and come to talk to us. Not the closed-minded ones that refuse to learn any other language or interact with Americans. I'm sure there are a few of them.
    Correct. Claiming that Americans are overall less intelligent is retarded; many of them are quite ignorant and it would take a lot of study to determine if any first-world country is truly more ignorant than the next, but by simple biology it's blatantly obvious that no country's citizens are inherently less intelligent than any other's.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

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