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  1. #51
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    ^Clearly this back and forth banter isn't going to accomplish any change in beliefs on either side. You have a different view on what is government's role and how you define individual rights--I believe somewhere on the spectrum of being a Libertarian.

    I on the other hand believe that government does serve a function beyond defense and I would like my taxes to be spent on the collective good of society (you know, those bothersome roads, schools, fire protection, hospitals, health care,etc). I cannot fathom the practical applications of the Libertarian philosophy to the reality of how society works. I have read parts of the platform for the party because I am open to different ideas, but it doesn't seem based in reality.

    Anyway, I will agree to disagree with you. Your arguments are not convincing as they seem to mainly apply from your own personal experience and not beyond that. I on the other hand see beyond my own needs and can see that government plays a significant role, in addition to personal responsibility, when it comes to comprehensive health care.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  2. #52
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    ^Clearly this back and forth banter isn't going to accomplish any change in beliefs on either side. You have a different view on what is government's role and how you define individual rights--I believe somewhere on the spectrum of being a Libertarian.
    Don't capitalize libertarian unless you are talking about the Libertarian Party.


    I on the other hand believe that government does serve a function beyond defense and I would like my taxes to be spent on the collective good of society (you know, those bothersome roads, schools, fire protection, hospitals, health care,etc). I cannot fathom the practical applications of the Libertarian philosophy to the reality of how society works. I have read parts of the platform for the party because I am open to different ideas, but it doesn't seem based in reality.
    You don't understand libertarian philosophy. I can recommend some writings if you would like.


    Anyway, I will agree to disagree with you. Your arguments are not convincing as they seem to mainly apply from your own personal experience and not beyond that. I on the other hand see beyond my own needs and can see that government plays a significant role, in addition to personal responsibility, when it comes to comprehensive health care.
    This is laughable. "mainly apply from my own personal experience and not beyond that?" How do you figure? "I see beyond my own needs" How self-righteous can you get?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I wouldn't bet on it. Risen is at least as principled (or ideological, depending on your view) as I am.
    Yea, that .

  4. #54
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=pure_mercury;769522]
    I would absolutely benefit more from no government health care (and coordinately lower taxes) than I would from everyone being covered. I am 26 years old and in good health. I have a job at another hospital pretty much in the bag, and I will have excellent health insurance as part of my health benefits for the next year or so. After that, I will be in grad school and I will have good health insurance there. And after that, I should be making somewhere in the range of $100K per year in my early-30s, and more as I continue my career. I will have health insurance from those jobs, and I would be able to afford excellent private health insurance even if I didn't have a plan through work. How would I benefit from a single-payer system?
    /QUOTE]

    I'm just reading your posts. I'm sure you're not as selfish as your posts indicate, and I'm not as self-righteous as my posts indicate--somewhere in the middle is the truth.

    Good luck with the job!
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  5. #55
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=statuesquechica;770171]
    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I would absolutely benefit more from no government health care (and coordinately lower taxes) than I would from everyone being covered. I am 26 years old and in good health. I have a job at another hospital pretty much in the bag, and I will have excellent health insurance as part of my health benefits for the next year or so. After that, I will be in grad school and I will have good health insurance there. And after that, I should be making somewhere in the range of $100K per year in my early-30s, and more as I continue my career. I will have health insurance from those jobs, and I would be able to afford excellent private health insurance even if I didn't have a plan through work. How would I benefit from a single-payer system?
    /QUOTE]

    I'm just reading your posts. I'm sure you're not as selfish as your posts indicate, and I'm not as self-righteous as my posts indicate--somewhere in the middle is the truth.

    Good luck with the job!

    I was taking issue with the contention that single-payer health care would benefit "everyone." I mean, by definition, I am one of "everyone," and I don't see how I would be helped out at all. I was using myself as an example. There are a lot of people in my general circumstances in America right now.


    Here is a link to a recent article by Shikha Dalmia for Reason on free markets and health care.

    The Myth of Free-Market Health Care in America: Why other Western countries offer no panacea for American woes - Reason Magazine
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #56
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    ^ok, that's cool...I know things get lost in translation when you can't communicate in person. I'll take a look at the article.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  7. #57
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Ok, read the article and reviewed the platform and website for the Libertarian Party (again). I can see that individual right's, reduced taxes, small government and free market (in all arenas) are the crux of the platform, as I previously thought. I do have some hesitation that the beginnings of the party are connected to the Cato Institute, and perhaps they still have that influence. Clearly some parts I am agreement with in regard to civil rights, but there has to be a balance with the good of society. I strongly disagree that private companies are going to be stewards of the environment, are going to protect their workers (OSHA anyone?), are going to monitor their own ethical behavior. Why in the world would I think a free market for health care would be any more effective when privatized services in the past have wreaked havoc, in this country and others?

    The article talks about comparative health care systems and costs. My friend is a professor in economics and shared his textbook with me on the various systems throughout the world and the numbers represented there vary from the article. I would have to know more about the source of the article before placing more weight on it than a textbook that cites stats from the various countries that were studied.

    No system of health care is perfect, but our priorities are different and so our solutions will be different.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

  8. #58
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    Ok, read the article and reviewed the platform and website for the Libertarian Party (again). I can see that individual right's, reduced taxes, small government and free market (in all arenas) are the crux of the platform, as I previously thought. I do have some hesitation that the beginnings of the party are connected to the Cato Institute, and perhaps they still have that influence. Clearly some parts I am agreement with in regard to civil rights, but there has to be a balance with the good of society. I strongly disagree that private companies are going to be stewards of the environment, are going to protect their workers (OSHA anyone?), are going to monitor their own ethical behavior. Why in the world would I think a free market for health care would be any more effective when privatized services in the past have wreaked havoc, in this country and others?

    The article talks about comparative health care systems and costs. My friend is a professor in economics and shared his textbook with me on the various systems throughout the world and the numbers represented there vary from the article. I would have to know more about the source of the article before placing more weight on it than a textbook that cites stats from the various countries that were studied.

    No system of health care is perfect, but our priorities are different and so our solutions will be different.
    PLEASE read something other than the LP platform. The vast majority of libertarians are not members of it. I can provide you with many recommendations for libertarian/classical liberal theory.

    Also, what is your issue with the Cato Institute?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #59
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I didn't say that it did. Private health care doesn't cause the deficit here. I was laughing at the much worse public sector problems that your country has when compared to mine, since you took time out to laugh at our legitimate concerns about government-funded health care.
    Yeah man, but if public health care is not what causes our public sector problems, then it's a bit of a weak rebuttal in a discussion concerning healthcare.
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  10. #60
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yeah man, but if public health care is not what causes our public sector problems, then it's a bit of a weak rebuttal in a discussion concerning healthcare.

    You could have just refrained from comment. I wasn't rebutting an argument. I was rebutting a snarky comment.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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