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Thread: Healthcare

  1. #381
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phoenix13 View Post
    Just because someone doesn't want a nationalized health care system does not mean that person believes the current system is fine.
    Everyone in this thread arguing against public option are emulating the same behavior that their peers and representatives are doing.

    They are tearing down the public option without offering any viable alternative.


    Its easy to poke holes in a suggested solution. Its another thing to put forth your own for others to critique.

  2. #382
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by avolkiteshvara View Post
    Everyone in this thread arguing against public option are emulating the same behavior that their peers and representatives are doing.

    They are tearing down the public option without offering any viable alternative.


    Its easy to poke holes in a suggested solution. Its another thing to put forth your own for others to critique.
    not entirely.

    even obama and his health secretary stated it (and later forgot they said it) - the public option is only one part of a number of reforms, all of which are of value.

    complexmango pointed out some ideas for changes that don't include the public option.
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  3. #383

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    stop taking away our money to help the undeserving poor!!!

  4. #384
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miked277 View Post
    not entirely.

    even obama and his health secretary stated it (and later forgot they said it) - the public option is only one part of a number of reforms, all of which are of value.

    complexmango pointed out some ideas for changes that don't include the public option.
    most of Mangos suggestions are already part of what Obama is proposing.

    One false dichotomy seems to be either "totally public or totally private". I believe Obama is proposing a hybrid.

    Having a public in addition to insurance companies does create more competition. In fact it actually sets a ceiling consumer's premiums/cost which forces health companies to run more efficiently.

  5. #385
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by avolkiteshvara View Post
    Everyone in this thread arguing against public option are emulating the same behavior that their peers and representatives are doing.

    They are tearing down the public option without offering any viable alternative.


    Its easy to poke holes in a suggested solution. Its another thing to put forth your own for others to critique.
    I've posted alternate solutions in other threads. I'm sure others have, too. I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to replay the entire health care debate in every single thread.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #386
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I've posted alternate solutions in other threads. I'm sure others have, too. I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to replay the entire health care debate in every single thread.
    If you say so.

  7. #387

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    Quote Originally Posted by avolkiteshvara View Post
    most of Mangos suggestions are already part of what Obama is proposing.

    One false dichotomy seems to be either "totally public or totally private". I believe Obama is proposing a hybrid.

    Having a public in addition to insurance companies does create more competition. In fact it actually sets a ceiling consumer's premiums/cost which forces health companies to run more efficiently.
    Ummm.... no. Precisely NONE of my suggestions are in Obama's bill. But then again, who knows what goodies may be hidden in its 1,017 pages (that the President himself has admitted he is not familiar with, btw).

    I have a suspicion that you have either failed to read my suggestions, or failed to study the healthcare bill, or most likely, both. I also suspect you think that using the phrase 'false dichotomy' gives the impression you've actually thought this through.



    Moreover, setting a ceiling REDUCES competition. If we don't trust the government to set the price of bread, or rice, or booze, or lap dances, why do we magically trust them to set the price of health insurance (i.e. a ceiling)?

    Thats why, my friend, 'hybrid' options don't work. Saying you're a little bit socialist is like saying you're a little bit pregnant. Either you are, or you aren't. Either a system transfers Peters money to Paul, or it doesn't. Since spreading the wealth only works till its gone, either your system will go bust or it won't. And Obamacare is a recipe for bankruptcy, hybrid or gas-guzzling.

    ---------------------------

    All of this flows out of the same fallacy - that there is a pie, and if I get a big piece, it means smaller pieces for everyone else. In the real world, that simple isn't true. The size of the pie constantly increases, despite government's efforts to the contrary. Compare healthcare in 2009 to 1999 and 1989 to understand my point.

    All my suggestions increase the size of the pie at a very rapid rate. Which means bigger pieces for everybody without the system failing.
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  8. #388
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    The healthcare industry has been mangled by government regulation in the U.S. and abroad. Although shifting toward a free market in health insurance (and healthcare more broadly) is the best solution to the existing problems, it also entails the public confronting some uncomfortable truths about the scarcity and cost of resources. It is the constant desire to evade or wish-away these truths that politicians capitalise upon to spread their power and influence -- this must be fought against, because they cannot deliver on their promises.
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  9. #389

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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    The healthcare industry has been mangled by government regulation in the U.S. and abroad. Although shifting toward a free market in health insurance (and healthcare more broadly) is the best solution to the existing problems, it also entails the public confronting some uncomfortable truths about the scarcity and cost of resources. It is the constant desire to evade or wish-away these truths that politicians capitalise upon to spread their power and influence -- this must be fought against, because they cannot deliver on their promises.
    Excellently put (in my opinion).
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  10. #390
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haphazard View Post
    Wouldn't that also reduce competition?
    I don't know. I guess there are some people that can afford private health care that would use the public system, instead.

    If what we have is now competition, it's not working, or at least, it's not working the way people say competition is supposed to work. Prices certainly are not being driven down.
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