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Thread: Healthcare

  1. #301
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    About the AARP Lobby | eHow.com

    So lets say they spend 1/5 th of their 20 million dollar a year lobby on Healthcare lobbying. Which is mostly to be pro senior citizen health care. So thats 4 million a year. or 1 million a quarter.

    Now lets look at Health care companies lobbying efforts.

    Pharma Lobbying Money: Who's Spending What Fighting Healthcare Reform | BNET Pharma Blog | BNET



    So the health care companies spent at LEAST $25 MILLION in the first quarter of 2009 alone on bribing efforts.

    Hmm....

    $25 million in one quarter, vs. $1 million in one quarter.

    Wonder if someone bribed me with 25 million, vs. 1 million, who would win?

    Even a tribal bushman can see this logic.

    But what IS the logic? Both sides do the same thing. Is it wrong to lobby or is it not? Unless your own bias tells you that one side is the "good" and the other side is the "evil," where does the difference lie? One side might win and one side might lose, but it's either ethical or it's not.
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  2. #302
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    But what IS the logic? Both sides do the same thing. Is it wrong to lobby or is it not? Unless your own bias tells you that one side is the "good" and the other side is the "evil," where does the difference lie? One side might win and one side might lose, but it's either ethical or it's not.
    when did i make an argument on "morality"? Lobbying is bribery IMO. But do you really think lobbying will be gone from US politics? Of course not. But it shows you the link between money and power.

    im just showing you who has more money, more power, more influence, and more to lose.

    I wouldn't assume that health care companies have a lot more lobbying money to work with.
    So I'm sure you don't think this anymore.

    So Im not sure how anyone who actually follows this health care debate can honestly say its based on thorough knowledge of the issues, and not that it is based on money and power.

    So if its based on money and power, then why have a debate at all?

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    when did i make an argument on "morality"? Lobbying is bribery IMO. But do you really think lobbying will be gone from US politics? Of course not. But it shows you the link between money and power.

    im just showing you who has more money, more power, more influence, and more to lose.
    More money usually means more power and more influence. There is an easier way to eliminate the influence-peddling in government, though: eliminate the influence. The more power government has to direct businesses, the harder they will fight to make sure they have elected officials and bureaucrats in their pockets. Ever read any Gabriel Kolko? He argues quite convincingly that much of the Progressive and New Deal Era government regulations of business were, in fact, supported by players within many of those industries, because the newly-powerful federal government could be employed to rationalize their sectors and shield them from competitors. Big Government + Big Business + lots of money flying around = the little guy getting screwed.


    So I'm sure you don't think this anymore.

    I didn't say I thought that. I said I wouldn't assume such a thing. I would never assume something like that without hard numbers, and I didn't have them. Don't put words in my mouth.


    So Im not sure how anyone who actually follows this health care debate can honestly say its based on thorough knowledge of the issues, and not that it is based on money and power.

    So if its based on money and power, then why have a debate at all?
    Because it still affects people? Many things in life come down to money. That doesn't mean we don't have the debate. Many people on both sides of the argument stand nothing to gain from their own positions, but still have them. I don't have health insurance at the moment, but I am against the public option. If I were just self-centered and only voted on what would benefit me (in the short-term, at least), why would I hold the position that I do? There are principles involved here.
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  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    There are principles involved here.
    Well if I had more money and power than you, your principles would be inferior to mine and it doesn't matter.

    So why argue and debate? Make money, lobby, and win. Thats what the puppetmaster does.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    Well if I had more money and power than you, your principles would be inferior to mine and it doesn't matter.

    So why argue and debate? Make money, lobby, and win. Thats what the puppetmaster does.

    We can actually vote some of the crooks out in this country. And we can always refuse to do business with others.
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  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    We can actually vote some of the crooks out in this country. And we can always refuse to do business with others.
    Well, lets watch this health care debate, and see whether its decided by an intelligent debate and understanding of the issues, or whether its manipulated into a non debate by the money and powers that be.

    my money is on the latter.

    i have health insurance, but i dont mind health care reform. its an uncompetitive industry.

  7. #307
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    I find it very strange and disturbing that there are so many ignorant people in this country that continue to support insurance corporations and their lobbyists. It seems some people just don't want to see the ugly truth that "sick care" will continue to make extraordinary profits for these corporations, while 14,000 people per day will continue to lose any basic care.

    Premiums (for people who have sick care) has gone up 87% since 2002. More insurance competition (that doesn't include a public option) will NOT result in coverage for people who are uninsured, under-insured, dropped for illness, or pre-existing conditions. It will result in even higher premiums, more denials, and ultimately, more deaths.

    Drink the Kool-Aid!
    Last edited by statuesquechica; 08-17-2009 at 08:37 PM. Reason: addendum
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  8. #308
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    We can actually vote some of the crooks out in this country. And we can always refuse to do business with others.
    Theoretically we can vote them out. Problem is, somebody paid for the campaign of the new guy and will be lobbying them, too.

    Drug companies also court doctors on a small scale to sell their products and a lot of people tend to buy whatever medications their doctors tell them to buy.

    I always make a point to ask for generics, but I haven't tried asking to only be prescribed medications from certain drug makers. I normally don't know who made the medicine until I've already paid for it and as nice as my doc is, she probably would rather I didn't google drug manufacturers during an office visit.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    I find it very strange and disturbing that there are so many ignorant people in this country that continue to support insurance corporations and their lobbyists. It seems some people just don't want to see the ugly truth that "sick care" will continue to make extraordinary profits for these corporations, while 14,000 people per day will continue to lose any basic care.

    Premiums (for people who have sick care) has gone up 87% since 2002. More insurance competition (that doesn't include a public option) will NOT result in coverage for people who are uninsured, under-insured, dropped for illness, or pre-existing conditions. It will result in even higher premiums, more denials, and ultimately, more deaths.

    Drink the Kool-Aid!

    Maybe they aren't ignorant. Maybe they are highly intelligent, have looked at the issue, and still disagree with you.
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  10. #310
    Senior Member miked277's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Maybe they aren't ignorant. Maybe they are highly intelligent, have looked at the issue, and still disagree with you.
    not possible, the left in this country have exclusive rights to all brain power. not only that, but those that do oppose the issue are "evil mongers," to quote harry reid.
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