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  1. #291
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by avolkiteshvara View Post
    Policy and operational efficiency are two different things.

    So where is the connection in policy? How are they "more socialist?" Can something that is funded and directed entirely through the government be "more socialized?" What are you trying to say here?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  2. #292
    mountain surfing nomadic's Avatar
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    i think people in the US are too stupid to overcome health care company's lobbying.

    any other country, lobbying of this sort would be considered bribery.

    health care companies rather hire lawyers to find out ways to improve their profitability. not do research on better medical service.

    anyways... just kinda feel sad about that. but we're all gonna die anyways. doesn't really matter if its a little higher quality of life, or a few more years. don't think it would really matter if u don't care.

  3. #293
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    i think people in the US are too stupid to overcome health care company's lobbying.

    any other country, lobbying of this sort would be considered bribery.

    Is there not lobbying on the other side? What have the unions and the AARP been doing?
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Is there not lobbying on the other side? What have the unions and the AARP been doing?
    why don't u tell me what they are doing and the amounts of each side bribing with. otherwise, without evidence, its normal to assume health care companies have a lot more to lose and a lot more lobbying money to work with.

  5. #295
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by r.a View Post
    whats it like to be so deeply programmed that you are willing to say such rude, unfounded things to someone who is making a choice to break away from the norm based on their personal beliefs? how is that robotic?
    He's demonstrating his tolerance by being intolerant.

    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    So where is the connection in policy? How are they "more socialist?" Can something that is funded and directed entirely through the government be "more socialized?" What are you trying to say here?
    They're not really more socialist, since you can't really get more socialist than public education in the US.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #296
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    So where is the connection in policy? How are they "more socialist?" Can something that is funded and directed entirely through the government be "more socialized?" What are you trying to say here?
    Its qualitative vs. quantitative.

    A program become social when it has a particular goal in mind.

    So you have both the education that was acquired and the $/spent. The aim of higher education in Europe is loftier than US; therefore they are more socially structure than US. But they can run their program efficiently or inefficiently.

    Socialism is an ideal. A commitment.

    You can argue that social is less or more inefficient. But the amount of $ spent is the result of the program. It doesn't define the program.

    Edit:

    This is getting boring. I'd rather talk about penis enlargement for Senior Citizens in Florida.

  7. #297
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    Quote Originally Posted by Modern Nomad View Post
    why don't u tell me what they are doing and the amounts of each side bribing with. otherwise, without evidence, its normal to assume health care companies have a lot more to lose and a lot more lobbying money to work with.
    Well, for one thing, I wouldn't assume that health care companies have a lot more lobbying money to work with. They are businesses that need money to run. Unions have overhead, but not nearly as much. The AARP is an interest group, so most of its money goes to trying to influence policy. The percentage of money spent by those two organizations on lobbying would be far more than any spent by a for-profit business. Now, the biggest insurance companies have more cash lying around, but the AARP has over 35 million members and the AFL-CIO represents over 10 million in North America. That is a shitload of influence in the national scene.

    The AARP spent almost $28 million on lobbying last year.

    Lobbying Spending Database-AARP, 2008 | OpenSecrets


    The AFL-CIO alone spends over $2 million per year on lobbying.

    AFL-CIO Spent More Than $2M Lobbying US Government in 2007 - Democratic Underground


    Here is some info about their lobbying efforts:

    Unions To Take On Conservative Groups Health Care Town Halls

    YouTube - AARP Town Hall Meeting on Health Care - Dallas, August 4, 2009


    The unions and the AARP are doing the same exact thing that conservative organizations are doing. There is no moral high ground here.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by avolkiteshvara View Post
    Its qualitative vs. quantitative.

    A program become social when it has a particular goal in mind.

    So you have both the education that was acquired and the $/spent. The aim of higher education in Europe is loftier than US; therefore they are more socially structure than US. But they can run their program efficiently or inefficiently.

    Socialism is an ideal. A commitment.

    You can argue that social is less or more inefficient. But the amount of $ spent is the result of the program. It doesn't define the program.

    Edit:

    This is getting boring. I'd rather talk about penis enlargement for Senior Citizens in Florida.

    You CANNOT be serious. That is the most laughable post I think I have ever seen on this site.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  9. #299
    Senior Member avolkiteshvara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    You CANNOT be serious. That is the most laughable post I think I have ever seen on this site.
    It can't be the most laughable. I'm sure I've posted other things that were much funnier.

  10. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post

    The AARP spent almost $28 million on lobbying last year.

    Lobbying Spending Database-AARP, 2008 | OpenSecrets
    In 2007, total lobbying expenses for the AARP organization were $19,540,000. Areas of reach include:
    healthcare
    social security and pensions
    Medicare/Medicaid
    insurance industry
    job/ work force development
    civil rights / civil liberties
    drug industry
    About the AARP Lobby | eHow.com

    So lets say they spend 1/5 th of their 20 million dollar a year lobby on Healthcare lobbying. Which is mostly to be pro senior citizen health care. So thats 4 million a year. or 1 million a quarter.

    Now lets look at Health care companies lobbying efforts.

    Pharma Lobbying Money: Who's Spending What Fighting Healthcare Reform | BNET Pharma Blog | BNET

    Here, compiled by the AP, are individual company details about the lobbying activities in Q1 2009:

    PhRMA - $7 million
    PhRMA is again trying to ensure drug companies wont face steep cuts in prescription prices and, instead of reducing drug margins, have proposed cost reductions to hospitals and insurers.
    Pfizer - $6.1 million
    Pfizer more than doubled its lobbying spending from the year-ago period. The company also spent nearly $3.3 million lobbying in the fourth quarter of 2008.
    New York-based Pfizer lobbied on legislation on health reform initiatives, electronic prescriptions, veterans issues, allowing generic versions of expensive biologic drugs and a proposal requiring research comparing the effectiveness of different medical treatments.
    It also lobbied on U.S. patent reform and on international patent, trade and regulatory issues involving more than 20 countries; national health insurance; legislation to require drug makers to disclose payments to physicians; reauthorization of the State Childrens Health Insurance Program; and environmental issues related to pharmaceutical manufacturing.
    Eli Lilly - $3.4 million
    Domestically, the drugmaker lobbied on Medicaid rebates and advertising transparency.
    Amgen - $2.8 million
    Amgen Inc., the worlds largest biotechnology company, spent nearly $2.8 million lobbying in the first quarter as Congress debates a potential system for bringing less expensive copies of pricey biotech drugs to the market.
    Merck - $1.5 million
    Merck lobbied Congress and the White House on health care reform issues including increasing coverage for uninsured people, requiring research comparing the effectiveness of different medical treatments and keeping a private-sector health care system.
    and increasing funding for the national immunization program for low-income children.
    Merck lobbied against imposing government price controls on prescription drugs bought under the Medicare program and against expanding rebates paid to the government for medications bought under the Medicaid program. But it lobbied for ensuring access to vaccines under Medicare; it sells the Zostavax vaccine against shingles, a painful, blistering rash that generally strikes senior citizens.
    Johnson & Johnson - $1.5 million
    It lobbied on multiple bills involving the Medicare prescription drug program that would either limit discounts given to the government or lower the prices it pays.
    J&J which offers employee wellness programs, lobbied in support of a tax credit to employers who do so, and on a bill that would require drug and medical device makers to report many payments to physicians.
    Wyeth - $876,000
    Madison, N.J.-based Wyeth ( WYE - news - people ) lobbied on several aspects of health care reform, including bills that could limit the prices the government pays for medications, as well as public disclosure of drugmaker payments to doctors. It lobbied on drug advertising rules and legislation to modernize the Food and Drug Administration.
    The maker of Centrum vitamins also lobbied on dietary supplement issues.
    Schering-Plough - $600,000
    Schering-Plough lobbied on health reform issues including access to coverage, price rebates for drugs bought under the Medicaid program and proposals to require research comparing effectiveness of different medical treatments.
    The maker of allergy treatments Nasonex and Claritin, and the HomeAgain Pet Recovery System also lobbied on reauthorization of the Childrens Health Insurance Program, legislation affecting Food and Drug Administration operations, and against importation of cheaper prescription drugs from foreign countries, which domestic drugmakers have opposed for years.
    Amylin - $350,000
    San Diego-based Amylin lobbied on legislation that would allow the Food and Drug Administration to approve copies of biotech drugs, reimbursement issues, drug safety and physician payment disclosures.
    Biogen - $290,000
    The Cambridge, Mass.-based company lobbied on legislation that would set up a process for the Food and Drug Administration to approve biosimilars, or copies of biotech drugs.
    So the health care companies spent at LEAST $25 MILLION in the first quarter of 2009 alone on bribing efforts.

    Hmm....

    $25 million in one quarter, vs. $1 million in one quarter.

    Wonder if someone bribed me with 25 million, vs. 1 million, who would win?

    Even a tribal bushman can see this logic.

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