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Thread: Healthcare

  1. #211
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Willfrey View Post
    Not enough involvement? Drug companies are posting record profits, the price of drugs are outrageously disproportionate to what they cost to create. Not to mention insurance, which is also grossly unregulated, where people have to get fucking lawyers and do battle in almost every situation involving high-dollar health care. Oh and don't try to tell us health insurance companies aren't posting record huge profits every year either.

    It's easy to see that with the current ridiculous, out of control costs of health care in America that yes, if we attempt to socialize health care it would be incredibly expensive simply because the system is so hopelessly flawed.
    Insurance is HIGHLY regulated. The regulation is part of the reason it costs so much (another part being that "insurance" doesn't even make sense for many aspects of health care).

    I haven't seen anyone making the claims Chimp is talking about, saying the system is fine the way it is. I don't know where he's getting that.

    I would rather see a single payer system than what has been proposed so far.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #212
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I would rather see a single payer system than what has been proposed so far.
    I would rather barter a live chicken for a bottle of aspirin at the corner store than go to a single-payer system. Well, actually that's not quite true, because I strongly suspect that after a generation of living with a single-payer system, we'll also be trading that chicken for the aspirin behind the corner store while we were on the waiting list for an office visit.

    Here are ten surprising facts about US health care, including:

    Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries. Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

  3. #213
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I would rather barter a live chicken for a bottle of aspirin at the corner store than go to a single-payer system. Well, actually that's not quite true, because I strongly suspect that after a generation of living with a single-payer system, we'll also be trading that chicken for the aspirin behind the corner store while we were on the waiting list for an office visit.

    Here are ten surprising facts about US health care, including:

    Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries. Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.
    you do realize that your source is a conservative lobby group funded by the insurance industry, right?

    i had knee surgery last year. top facility, a week waiting time from initial diagnosis to procedure, all for about 40 euro out of my pocket, including rehab - on standard public german insurance. aok was my carrier if that matters.

    can that happen in america? didnt think so.

  4. #214
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post
    you do realize that your source is a conservative lobby group funded by the insurance industry, right?

    i had knee surgery last year. top facility, a week waiting time from initial diagnosis to procedure, all for about 40 euro out of my pocket, including rehab - on standard public german insurance. aok was my carrier if that matters.
    Do you realize that I'm a conservative individual whose life is funded by my work in the pharmaceutical industry?

    Do I somehow not count because of that?

    The company I work for makes bulk generics, a pretty low-profit-margin market segment really, so I have no vested interest in the R&D side of the business.

    And I have no interest in participating in a German-style health care system, or living in a country that resembles Germany in any serious respect. There's effective single-payer health care in prisons, too, but no thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post
    can that happen in america? didnt think so.
    What's your tax rate again?

    Fact is, what you didn't pay for your surgery wasn't free... it was included. You already pre-paid it to the government last year, and the year before that, and the year before that.

    How many businesses in Germany folded last year, or relocated to other countries because of oppressive taxes and over-regulation?

    You don't know, you're a doctrinaire socialist. To your eyes everything is as it should be.

    Best of luck with that.

  5. #215
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    I would rather barter a live chicken for a bottle of aspirin at the corner store than go to a single-payer system. Well, actually that's not quite true, because I strongly suspect that after a generation of living with a single-payer system, we'll also be trading that chicken for the aspirin behind the corner store while we were on the waiting list for an office visit.

    Here are ten surprising facts about US health care, including:

    Fact No. 3: Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries. Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit are taking statins, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons and 17 percent of Italians receive them.
    I don't think a single payer system is ideal, I just don't think it's the worst system we could have. I think a single payer system would work better than what has been proposed. What has been proposed is a half-measure. I fear that it will make things worse (failing to lower costs, but guaranteeing coverage to high cost customers, blowing up the budget even more).
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I don't think a single payer system is ideal, I just don't think it's the worst system we could have. I think a single payer system would work better than what has been proposed. What has been proposed is a half-measure. I fear that it will make things worse (failing to lower costs, but guaranteeing coverage to high cost customers, blowing up the budget even more).

    I agree. Sometimes, piecemeal is worse than whole hog. Of course, they could actually open up the health care industry to more competition, see how that goes.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #217
    Senior Member dga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Do you realize that I'm a conservative individual whose life is funded by my work in the pharmaceutical industry?

    Do I somehow not count because of that?

    The company I work for makes bulk generics, a pretty low-profit-margin market segment really, so I have no vested interest in the R&D side of the business.

    And I have no interest in participating in a German-style health care system, or living in a country that resembles Germany in any serious respect. There's effective single-payer health care in prisons, too, but no thanks.



    What's your tax rate again?

    Fact is, what you didn't pay for your surgery wasn't free... it was included. You already pre-paid it to the government last year, and the year before that, and the year before that.

    How many businesses in Germany folded last year, or relocated to other countries because of oppressive taxes and over-regulation?

    You don't know, you're a doctrinaire socialist. To your eyes everything is as it should be.

    Best of luck with that.
    You are certainly free work for pharma or insurance, but don't expect everyone to blindly take "facts" from a lobbying group funded by them.

    What is my tax rate? At the time, i took home 30 percent less of my paycheck, all taxes and insurance paid for. No additional local and state taxes, and i didnt have to worry about getting sick. 20 vacation days, and unlimited sick days. Do salaried americans have that as standard? I'm self employed now, so my situation is much more fluctuating, but also more relaxing.


    have you been to germany? I grew up in the states (lived there for almost 24 years)and would certainly never move back. The water tastes better, there are more bike paths, better public transportation (including any strikes or deutsche bahn fuckups), and the food is not only cheaper, but tastes better due to a lack of corn syrup and whatever genetically modified methods the US allows. Tomatoes taste like tomatoes, not water. There is more variety on the radio, and while television is also crap here, the internet and mobile phone networks are more advanced. My apartment building is over 100 years old and is better built than my parents 30 year thin paper wall piece of shit in the states.

    How many businesses closed in america last year? You do remember this financial crises that has been affecting many nations across the globe, regardless what their individual health care systems are. However, you might notice that germany is one of the top exporters, despite having such a comparably smaller population and land mass.

    but go on an tell me how shit everywhere but america is. ive been to north carolina. its not exactly my favorite place in the us

  8. #218
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dga View Post
    What is my tax rate? At the time, i took home 30 percent less of my paycheck, all taxes and insurance paid for. No additional local and state taxes, and i didnt have to worry about getting sick. 20 vacation days, and unlimited sick days. Do salaried americans have that as standard? I'm self employed now, so my situation is much more fluctuating, but also more relaxing.


    have you been to germany? I grew up in the states (lived there for almost 24 years)and would certainly never move back. The water tastes better, there are more bike paths, better public transportation (including any strikes or deutsche bahn fuckups), and the food is not only cheaper, but tastes better due to a lack of corn syrup and whatever genetically modified methods the US allows. Tomatoes taste like tomatoes, not water. There is more variety on the radio, and while television is also crap here, the internet and mobile phone networks are more advanced. My apartment building is over 100 years old and is better built than my parents 30 year thin paper wall piece of shit in the states.

    How many businesses closed in america last year? You do remember this financial crises that has been affecting many nations across the globe, regardless what their individual health care systems are. However, you might notice that germany is one of the top exporters, despite having such a comparably smaller population and land mass.

    but go on an tell me how shit everywhere but america is. ive been to north carolina. its not exactly my favorite place in the us
    hmmm. definitely food for thought. i went and figured out our tax rate because i have heard in europe you pay about 30%. well, from my best guestimation reviewing our taxes, we only pay about 10-12% tax, including state income tax. my husband makes a good, healthy income. we don't have sales tax where we live. we do have 5 kids, which gives us a great tax break, so i'm sure that won't be the case for others here that don't have as many kids. we do pay an additional 5% for shitty insurance premiums and health care (that's assuming we stay basically healthy), putting us up to 15-17% tax.

    we have great water where we live, and decent bike paths. but we are unusual in that because we live in a semi-rural area. the cities and towns definitely have chlorinated (crappy) water. we can afford tasty tomatoes because we are part of an organic food coop, but most aren't. my husband gets GOOD leave time which is 3 weeks, most get 2, and many get none. sick days are frowned upon and working overtime is expected.

    i've noticed our local wal-mart and k-mart are getting pretty substandard now. (that they've run out small competition?) i mean, i went to wal-mart the other day (i try to avoid it) and they didn't have MOST of the items i was there for, which is the second time that's happened in one month. and they couldn't care less. k-mart was only slightly better. i prefer locally owned business--they come through in those times.

    i MISS not having decent public transportation, like nice trains. wth? why can't america have a decent transit system? i miss having a better wireless system, and technology here in the states does seem substandard to what i perceive europe enjoys.

    however, i think germany overdoes some things, like education. i mean, you can't legally homeschool there from what i've researched. they definitely, as a country, think they know better than parents about what is best for the children across the board. this is not how we feel, and i appreciate my right to homeschool and not subject my children to socialized ideaologies about what is best.

    so, would another 10%-15% ($10-15K) dollars be worth decent vacation, sick time off, better transportation, universal health care, for everyone? yes. i believe it would. one accident or hospitalization in one of the members of our family would even the score on that in and of itself. but of course, america can't just embody what europe has been cultivating for years. i don't see how we can get from point a to point b without it becoming worse first.
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  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by avolkiteshvara View Post
    Health care stocks are doing fine which signals that Obama is losing.
    Stocks aren't proof of anything. Whether or not the average American is getting reasonable health care is the issue.

    What the hell is wrong with you people?

  10. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by marmalade.sunrise View Post
    Stocks aren't proof of anything. Whether or not the average American is getting reasonable health care is the issue.

    What the hell is wrong with you people?
    If we're going by "average" American, then they are getting excellent but expensive health care.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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