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  1. #131
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The highest suicide rates in the world are currently in the former Soviet Republics and Eastern bloc nations. Lithuania, Belarus, Hungary (which apparently has a cultural tradition of suicide, as does Japan). The United States has a pretty low rate of suicide for the industrialized. Our women are particularly self-preserving. If I were to venture a guess, the main factors in our non-suicidal culture is that A) we're rich; and B) we're more religious than other industrialized countries. Many people in America fervently believe that suicide is a very serious sin. The highest suicide rate by far in America is for elderly white men.
    In 2005 America was ranked the 43rd highest suicide rate in the world, out of 195 countries. That's still, what, 78th percentile? That doesn't sound "completely wrong" to me.


    Also:

    Alcoholism Statistics - LoveToKnow Recovery

    Alcoholism is a condition that affects many people in the USA...approximately 43 percent of the population has a family member who is an alcoholic. That works out to approximately 76 million people who grew up in a home where someone had a problem with alcohol or married someone with one.

    Wow, not too bad, huh? I guess it's still less than half...


    It's pretty odd that someone with as big a penchant for reciting memorized statistics/missing the bigger point as you would somehow not know these stats.

    The funny part, of course, is that nobody has made any attempt to explain how suicide rates somehow, apparently, directly correlate with the common citizen's satisfaction with the cost of his flipping health insurance. Talk about middling details!
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  2. #132
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Umm points for creativity, but there are so, so, so, so many factors economical, cultural and otherwise that go into something like suicide rates in a given country that this statistic hardly supports any direct correlation between economic freedom and suicide rates.
    Yes, I believe that you are correct. I also believe the same is true of any direct correlation between public health care and standard of living.

  3. #133
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Alcoholism is a condition that affects many people in the USA...approximately 43 percent of the population has a family member who is an alcoholic.

    Wow, not too bad, huh? I guess it's still less than half...
    Evaluating the statistic that way inflates the number considerably. That means if a family of four has an alcoholic mom, it's counting four affected individuals for one problem drinker. Take that number (43 percent) and divide it by the average family size, and you'll get a figure closer to the truth.

    Like many special interest groups, your source found a way to crunch the numbers to make the problem look bigger than it is. That's a non-profit's bread and butter.

  4. #134
    (☞゚∀゚)☞ The Decline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    The United States doesn't spend anywhere close to 2/3rds of its budget on national defense. I do think it's too high (especially with the multiple engagements we have now), but it's only 1/6th of the budget. Social Security is the plurality at about 21%. Medicare makes up 13%. Medicaid and SCHIP makes up about 7%. Social services and transfer payments make up the majority of the federal budget. Now, the wars are not included in the regular budget (special appropriations), but I would have to see a CBO figure that actually took defense spending from 16% over 50%.


    File:Fy2008spendingbycategory.png - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Oh sorry, I meant the discretionary budget. See here: http://fc00.deviantart.com/fs29/f/20...09_by_mibi.jpg

    Military/Nat. Security - 68%

    That budget basically would be where healthcare would come from.
    "Stop it, you fuck. Give him some butter."
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  5. #135
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    In 2005 America was ranked the 43rd highest suicide rate in the world, out of 195 countries. That's still, what, 78th percentile? That doesn't sound "completely wrong" to me.
    No, it's completely wrong. It's easily one of the lowest in the industrialized world. It's lower than the vast majority of Protestant and Eastern Orthodox countries. There are countries that are traditionally Catholic like Ireland, Italy, and Spain and then extremely religious like Israel that have lower suicide rates, but it's quite low compared to comparable nations.


    Also:

    Alcoholism Statistics - LoveToKnow Recovery

    Alcoholism is a condition that affects many people in the USA...approximately 43 percent of the population has a family member who is an alcoholic. That works out to approximately 76 million people who grew up in a home where someone had a problem with alcohol or married someone with one.

    Wow, not too bad, huh? I guess it's still less than half...
    Less than half of what? The percentage of alcoholism in adults in the U.S. is too high, but you're not looking at raw statistics. The highest rates of alcoholism are, again, in former Soviet republics and satellite nations (Russia, Poland, Czech Republic) and then in Nordic countries. The rate of drunk driving is outrageous in France. Personally, I believe our rates of alcoholism stem from our abnormally high drinking age. It's just weird to have alcohol be illegal up until the age that the average American is or would be a junior or senior in college.


    It's pretty odd that someone with as big a penchant for reciting memorized statistics/missing the bigger point as you would somehow not know these stats.

    The funny part, of course, is that nobody has made any attempt to explain how suicide rates somehow, apparently, directly correlate with the common citizen's satisfaction with the cost of his flipping health insurance. Talk about middling details!
    I didn't bring suicide up, and you were still wrong about it.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #136
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    In the absence of anti-trust regulation, there is no reason for a monopoly not to form.
    Free trade makes the formation of monopolies more difficult. It's really difficult to dominate the entire globe (De Beers and Microsoft being a couple of the rare exceptions), much easier to dominate a single country. If you're only able to dominate a single country and that country has free trade, you would inevitably face foreign competition.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #137
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    No, it's completely wrong. It's easily one of the lowest in the industrialized world. It's lower than the vast majority of Protestant and Eastern Orthodox countries. There are countries that are traditionally Catholic like Ireland, Italy, and Spain and then extremely religious like Israel that have lower suicide rates, but it's quite low compared to comparable nations.
    Yeah, I read the stats, but it's still 43/195. I realize it may be one of the lower ones among first-world countries, but this isn't even relevant--as Oberon noted, suicide rates seem rather unrelated to health care policy in general.




    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Less than half of what? The percentage of alcoholism in adults in the U.S. is too high, but you're not looking at raw statistics. The highest rates of alcoholism are, again, in former Soviet republics and satellite nations (Russia, Poland, Czech Republic) and then in Nordic countries. The rate of drunk driving is outrageous in France. Personally, I believe our rates of alcoholism stem from our abnormally high drinking age. It's just weird to have alcohol be illegal up until the age that the average American is or would be a junior or senior in college.
    Less than half of people have a family member who's had a serious drinking problem. The fact that those other countries have higher alcoholism rates is fine and good, but I don't see any connection to satisfaction with health care policy.




    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    I didn't bring suicide up, and you were still wrong about it.
    I didn't bring it up either--let's hope whoever did can stick to more relevant topics for the remainder of the discussion.

    And no, I wasn't wrong, because I didn't specify any conditions such as "countries with x, y, and z developments"; I merely said that the US does have higher alcoholism and suicide rates than the average country, which is quite apparently true.

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Evaluating the statistic that way inflates the number considerably. That means if a family of four has an alcoholic mom, it's counting four affected individuals for one problem drinker. Take that number (43 percent) and divide it by the average family size, and you'll get a figure closer to the truth.

    Like many special interest groups, your source found a way to crunch the numbers to make the problem look bigger than it is. That's a non-profit's bread and butter.
    Okay, fair enough, but I still don't see how you could consider the real numbers low or insignificant. Go to any college town over spring break and you'll see pretty quickly how irresponsible Americans tend to be with alcohol.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Free trade makes the formation of monopolies more difficult. It's really difficult to dominate the entire globe (De Beers and Microsoft being a couple of the rare exceptions), much easier to dominate a single country. If you're only able to dominate a single country and that country has free trade, you would inevitably face foreign competition.
    Uh huh, in the same way that prohibition makes getting drugs more difficult.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #138
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    There are so many variables when considering a nation's suicide rate and how it corresponds to its health care system (whether the correlation is that strong). However, most agree that infant mortality rate is a strong indicator of a country's level of health.

    Currently, the US ranks 29 out of 30 industrialized countries for rates of infant mortality. The life expectancy for the US ranks 24 out of 30 industrialized countries. For minorities both rates are shockingly similar to underdeveloped countries.

    The US does well at providing top medical care for difficult cases (if one has good insurance), but we do little to provide basic, preventative health care. If you are one of the lucky ones to have excellent health care, you probably see little reason to alter the system that dramatically and let the insurance company CEOs make anywhere from $14 MILLION to $20 MILLION per year.

    Infant Mortality: U.S. Ranks 29th
    U.S. Ties Slovakia, Poland for 29th Place in Infant Deaths
    By Daniel J. DeNoon
    WebMD Health NewsReviewed by Louise Chang, MDOct. 15, 2008 -- The U.S. ranks 29th worldwide in infant mortality, tying Slovakia and Poland but lagging behind Cuba, the CDC reports.
    The CDC's latest estimates for international rankings are based on 2004 data. But as of 2005, the numbers haven't changed much since 2000.

    Nearly seven U.S. babies die out of every 1,000 live births. More than 28,000 American babies die before their first birthday.

    In Japan, ranked in third place behind Singapore and Hong Kong, the infant mortality rate is 2.8 per thousand live births -- less than half the U.S. rate.

    In one way, the U.S. has improved since 1960. Back then, 26 in 1,000 infants died. That was good enough to land the U.S. in 12th place.

    We've advanced since then, but not as fast as many other nations. By 1990, the U.S. had fallen to 23rd place.

    "The U.S. infant mortality rate is higher than rates in most other developed countries," note CDC researchers Marian F. MacDorman, PhD, and T.J. Mathews. "The relative position of the United States in comparison to countries with the lowest infant mortality rates appears to be worsening."

    What's going on? Racial and ethnic disparities clearly play a role. In 2005, for every 1,000 live births, the infant mortality rate was:

    13.63 among non-Hispanic black Americans
    5.76 among non-Hispanic white Americans
    Premature birth is a factor in more than two-thirds of infant deaths. From 2000 to 2005, the U.S. preterm birth rate went up from 11.6% to 12.7%.

    MacDorman and Mathews report the data in the CDC's October 2008 National Center for Health Statistics data brief, "Recent Trends in Infant Mortality in the United States."

    Infant Mortality Rates by Country
    Here is the complete list of infant mortality rates per 1,000 live births for 2004:

    1. Singapore 2.0

    2. Hong Kong 2.5

    3. Japan 2.8

    4. Sweden 3.1

    5. Norway 3.2

    6. Finland 3.3

    7. Spain 3.5

    8. Czech Republic 3.7

    9. France 3.9

    10. Portugal 4.0

    11. Germany 4.1

    11. Greece 4.1

    11. Italy 4.1

    11. Netherlands 4.1

    15. Switzerland 4.2

    16. Belgium 4.3

    17. Denmark 4.4

    18. Austria 4.5

    18. Israel 4.5

    20. Australia 4.7

    21. Ireland 4.9

    21. Scotland 4.9

    23. England and Wales 5.0

    24. Canada 5.3

    25. Northern Ireland 5.5

    26. New Zealand 5.7

    27. Cuba 5.8

    28. Hungary 6.6

    29. Poland 6.9

    29. Slovakia 6.9

    29. United States 6.9

    32. Puerto Rico 8.1

    33. Chile 8.4

    34. Costa Rica 9.0

    35. Russian Federation 11.5

    36. Bulgaria 11.7

    37. Romania 16.8
    I've looked at life from both sides now
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  9. #139
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    Perhaps statues and other should consider a few things before they go spouting off studies that give information on neither correlation nor cause. Consider that western medicine is designed mainly to deal with problems that have already occurred. Consider that Americans have some very unhealthy habits despite being in such a rich nation that contribute greatly to them acquiring diseases (especially chronic ones) in the first place. If you have a population comprised of individuals who do little to actually keep their health optimal by virtue of the lifestyle they live (because western medicine does not focus on keeping illness away, but on treating it once it occurs) then of course you will have more problems. That would be a no brainer in a world where people actually had brains (not this world).

    Medicine doesn't get rid of disease, medicine treats problems once they have occurred. If the U.S. has a RELATIVELY high infant morality rate, it is highly unlikely that it's because people aren't getting the treatment they need, it's likely because there is a higher incidence of birth complication in this country that not even highly advanced medicine and medical technology can eliminate since the problem has already formed and stems from some other source that is plaguing the population.

    Now i know we don't really care about intelligent arguments so... meh, I wont even go any further.

  10. #140
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Risen View Post
    If the U.S. has a RELATIVELY high infant morality rate, it is highly unlikely that it's because people aren't getting the treatment they need, it's likely because there is a higher incidence of birth complication in this country that not even highly advanced medicine and medical technology can eliminate since the problem has already formed and stems from some other source that is plaguing the population.
    I just love how people can dismiss the facts from the CDC staring them in the face and dismiss them with some unfounded idea that the US has a "higher incidence of birth complications." A higher incidence than Cuba? than Slovakia? Of course prenatal care, diet, exercise are all essential to a healthy pregnancy and birth--there are a multitude of factors, but preventative care is a big part of any comprehensive health care system, one that exists marginally, if at all, for many Americans.

    If you have proof (and a source you can cite) to support your above assertion, I would really like to see it.

    By the way, it's statuesque, not "statues" (I'm tall), or chica works
    I've looked at life from both sides now
    From up and down and still somehow
    It's life's illusions I recall
    I really don't know life at all

    Joni Mitchell

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