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Thread: Healthcare

  1. #121
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Ummmm... because availability of some form of health care is one of the standard-of-living metrics, making the higher result a self-fulfilling statistic?
    Bullshit. Not good enough.

    They have longer lifespans, lower infant Mortality rates, less poverty, better education, etc, etc...

    Healthcare is supposedly going to stress the economy, and create a drain. It will make things harder for the common man, right? So, where is that drain in those developed countries?
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  2. #122
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Bullshit. Not good enough.
    Keep it civil, please. It was actually just a guess on my part, considering that I don't have the studies in front of me that you're apparently consulting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    They have longer lifespans, lower infant Mortality rates, less poverty, better education, etc, etc...

    Healthcare is supposedly going to stress the economy, and create a drain. It will make things harder for the common man, right? So, where is that drain in those developed countries?
    Price a three-bedroom, 1800-square-foot house in Scotland, or Denmark, and you'll see. Price a gallon of gas in those places and you'll be convinced.

    The northern European countries often cited as these marvels of civilization also frequently have high incidences of alcoholism and high suicide rates. So if their standard of living is so high, why are they so depressed?

  3. #123
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    The US also has high incidence of alcoholism and suicide rates, for the record.
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  4. #124
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    The US also has high incidence of alcoholism and suicide rates, for the record.
    Compared to Sweden's? Or Japan's?

  5. #125
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Price a three-bedroom, 1800-square-foot house in Scotland, or Denmark, and you'll see. Price a gallon of gas in those places and you'll be convinced.

    The northern European countries often cited as these marvels of civilization also frequently have high incidences of alcoholism and high suicide rates. So if their standard of living is so high, why are they so depressed?
    Well, I was also including Canada and the like, but never the less, I know that these places have high expenses. They also tend to have higher wages than the US and better funded social programs, which seem to counterbalance the problem. If they did not counterbalance the problem, we would likely see worse statistics for their living conditions because they'd be homeless without aid.

    As for suicide and alcholism, I do not know. I know it's true of Norway, and some other nations. However I was not aware that say Canada, or France, had more of those problems than the USA. However, those countries do show the other statistical trends.

    What must be said here, though, is that you are bringing up is altogether more subjective and psychological than what I have. You did this by asking why people are depressed. As Emile Durkheim pointed out so many years ago, Protestants were more likely to commit suicide than Catholics, men than women, single people than married people, and so forth. The point being that suicide has so many roots that linking them to something like the effects of healthcare is very shakey. Durkheim found that suicide was related to social attachment and social regulation, and it could be caused by too much or too little of either. This could make suicide just as possible in a highly capitalistic society, as for instance, I think anomic suicide would be much more likely in one. Too many possibilities. Too hard to tie things that personally complex into a policy, I think. Not with confidence anyhow

    I, however, am not trying to prove that national healtchare lowers or increases those things. I am merely noting that things aren't, for the most part, going terribly bad in Europe or any worse than here, which casts doubt on your theory that such a healthcare policy would do damage.

    And I should note, Durkheim found that Scandinavians commited suicide more than other people... in the late 1800s. So I'm guessing the fact that they do that now isn't related to healthcare.
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  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, I was also including Canada and the like, but never the less, I know that these places have high expenses. They also tend to have higher wages than the US and better funded social programs, which seem to counterbalance the problem. If they did not counterbalance the problem, we would likely see worse statistics for their living conditions because they'd be homeless without aid.

    As for suicide and alcholism, I do not know. I know it's true of Norway, and some other nations. However I was not aware that say Canada, or France, had more of those problems than the USA. However, those countries do show the other statistical trends.

    What must be said here, though, is that you are bringing up is altogether more subjective and psychological than what I have. You did this by asking why people are depressed. As Emile Durkheim pointed out so many years ago, Protestants were more likely to commit suicide than Catholics, men than women, single people than married people, and so forth. The point being that suicide has so many roots that linking them to something like the effects of healthcare is very shakey. Durkheim found that suicide was related to social attachment and social regulation, and it could be caused by too much or too little of either. This could make suicide just as possible in a highly capitalistic society, as for instance, I think anomic suicide would be much more likely in one. Too many possibilities. Too hard to tie things that personally complex into a policy, I think. Not with confidence anyhow

    I, however, am not trying to prove that national healtchare lowers or increases those things. I am merely noting that things aren't, for the most part, going terribly bad in Europe or any worse than here, which casts doubt on your theory that such a healthcare policy would do damage.

    And I should note, Durkheim found that Scandinavians commited suicide more than other people... in the late 1800s. So I'm guessing the fact that they do that now isn't related to healthcare.
    The highest suicide rates in the world are currently in the former Soviet Republics and Eastern bloc nations. Lithuania, Belarus, Hungary (which apparently has a cultural tradition of suicide, as does Japan). The United States has a pretty low rate of suicide for the industrialized. Our women are particularly self-preserving. If I were to venture a guess, the main factors in our non-suicidal culture is that A) we're rich; and B) we're more religious than other industrialized countries. Many people in America fervently believe that suicide is a very serious sin. The highest suicide rate by far in America is for elderly white men.
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  7. #127
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    Okay, so somehow these other developed countries afford government subsidized healthcare. Perhaps it's because they don't spend 2/3 of their national budget on defense. Honestly, the Defense Department expenditures are the elephant in the room in the US. If the government continues to waste its budget on killing people across the oceans, it's no wonder that tiny social service programs get bitterly fought over. Industry lobbyists have a strangehold on politics. They incite fear in the majority-ruling Democrats (campaign funding is so hard to come by these days!). Not to mention that Republicans' "Just Say No" comes from their efforts to appear anti-tax and their foundations of meritocracy-worship.
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  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    The US also has high incidence of alcoholism and suicide rates, for the record.
    Alcoholism isn't too bad, and you're completely wrong about suicide.
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  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Decline View Post
    Okay, so somehow these other developed countries afford government subsidized healthcare. Perhaps it's because they don't spend 2/3 of their national budget on defense. Honestly, the Defense Department expenditures are the elephant in the room in the US. If the government continues to waste its budget on killing people across the oceans, it's no wonder that tiny social service programs get bitterly fought over. Industry lobbyists have a strangehold on politics. They incite fear in the majority-ruling Democrats (campaign funding is so hard to come by these days!). Not to mention that Republicans' "Just Say No" comes from their efforts to appear anti-tax and their foundations of meritocracy-worship.
    The United States doesn't spend anywhere close to 2/3rds of its budget on national defense. I do think it's too high (especially with the multiple engagements we have now), but it's only 1/6th of the budget. Social Security is the plurality at about 21%. Medicare makes up 13%. Medicaid and SCHIP makes up about 7%. Social services and transfer payments make up the majority of the federal budget. Now, the wars are not included in the regular budget (special appropriations), but I would have to see a CBO figure that actually took defense spending from 16% over 50%.


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  10. #130
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Compared to Sweden's? Or Japan's?
    Umm points for creativity, but there are so, so, so, so many factors economical, cultural and otherwise that go into something like suicide rates in a given country that this statistic hardly supports any direct correlation between economic freedom and suicide rates.
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