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Thread: Healthcare

  1. #101
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Do you have facts for all of this, rather than assumptions?
    Well, considering that "facts" are observable and we're talking about future events, I'd say that neither one of us has "facts" per se.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Well, actually, the beginning of bureaucracy made society markedly more efficient and opened up vast opportunities.
    Yes. For bureaucrats.

  2. #102
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Well, considering that "facts" are observable and we're talking about future events, I'd say that neither one of us has "facts" per se.
    I think you know what I meant. Give me empirical and/or rational evidence that your predictions are probable.


    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Yes. For bureaucrats.
    What is a bureaucrat? When does someone qualify for that title. Merely participating isn't good enough I'm sure, because then most citizens would be bureaucrats.

    Anyway, you're wrong, it was beneficial to most of society, even markets. In fact, capitalism depends on bureaucracy to exist. Most of modern society is powered by an enginge of bureaucracy. When you need to manage work on the scale we do now, you need that sort of organization.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  3. #103
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    *whispers*

    We're talking about heaaaaaalth caaaaaaaaareeeeeee.....
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  4. #104
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Right now I'm father of a family of six scraping by on a single income because my wife and I actually want our children to be raised at home with a parent continually present. We live in a $65,000 home because it's the best we can afford. My newest vehicle is nine years old, and we have about $600 in our savings account. We also give on a monthly basis to several charities.

    And I think collectivizing health care is an extraordinarily bad idea.
    That's wonderful; it sounds like your heart is really in the right place.

    I even agree with you that completely socializing the health care industry is a very bad idea, but pretending that the "invisible hand will work it out" is just unrealistic. We're playing with people's lives here, not an expected return problem. It's become quite apparent that the invisible hand is NOT working it out in the health care industry, and it's time for government to do something about the ludicrously high prices by breaking up the illegal oligopoly that unfairly fixes prices in an industry with totally inelastic demand.

    Wouldn't you want to know that your kids had food and clothing and shelter and education if, God forbid, something were to happen to their parents? Can you really place "boo hoo I'm a whiny little bitch that doesn't want to pay my taxes" over putting food on the plates of innocent children? Really?


    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    In the town where I live, nobody starves. If anyone goes without food in my city, it's because they didn't know where to go or who to ask, not because it wasn't available.

    But it's from private charities, not government handouts.

    Historically speaking, your position is much more extreme than mine.
    That's terrific, but "poor people will always find charity somewhere I guess" is not really a reasonable justification for allowing people to starve/die through clearly no fault of their own.

    And my position is hardly extreme; I only support limited social support net. I'm not sure exactly what your position is, but if it involves "None of my money should ever be taken from me no matter what on, principle", chances are it's pretty implausible/inapplicable to anything in real life.

    You live in a Republic where it's entirely impractical to have every citizen vote on every measure of budgeting, and complaining that you shouldn't have to help pay for public services that you don't use, while technically correct in theory, is hopelessly out of touch with the practical limitations of a little thing called reality.

    As I said, Libertarians have the right principles, just lack the perspective to understand the contexts in which those principles should be applied and those in which they should not. Personally, I find it rather disingenuous that Libertarians insist that their position is somehow ideologically purer in principle, as if they don't draw their own arbitrary line of government intervention--but if you're not a total 100% anarchist, you still draw an arbitrary line for government intervention into the economy; you just draw it in a different place than most people.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    That's wonderful; it sounds like your heart is really in the right place.

    I even agree with you that completely socializing the health care industry is a very bad idea, but pretending that the "invisible hand will work it out" is just unrealistic. We're playing with people's lives here, not an expected return problem. It's become quite apparent that the invisible hand is NOT working it out in the health care industry, and it's time for government to do something about the ludicrously high prices by breaking up the illegal oligopoly that unfairly fixes prices in an industry with totally inelastic demand.

    Wouldn't you want to know that your kids had food and clothing and shelter and education if, God forbid, something were to happen to their parents? Can you really place "boo hoo I'm a whiny little bitch that doesn't want to pay my taxes" over putting food on the plates of innocent children? Really?

    Do we have the invisible hand at work in health care? Ever since Medicare and Medicaid were passed, federal and state governments have footed the bills more and more, and the number of uninsured Americans has increased. Do you really think that a market in which government pays 40 cents out of every dollar spent is an example of a free market? And there is no industry with "totally inelastic demand." There are no such things as totally elastic or totally inelastic sectors.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  6. #106
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    How about some qualitative analysis?

    How would a totally unregulated healthcare market fix the problem?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #107
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pure_mercury View Post
    Do we have the invisible hand at work in health care? Ever since Medicare and Medicaid were passed, federal and state governments have footed the bills more and more, and the number of uninsured Americans has increased. Do you really think that a market in which government pays 40 cents out of every dollar spent is an example of a free market? And there is no industry with "totally inelastic demand." There are no such things as totally elastic or totally inelastic sectors.
    lolz, ever heard of alcohol?

    If spawning an entire organized crime underworld the likes of which produced the beginnings of one of the biggest family fortunes in the history of our nation, including propelling a peppy young ESTP named John F. Kennedy straight to the White House isn't "inelastic demand" for a product, then I don't know what is.

    In other words, "totally inelastic" doesn't literally mean 100% inelastic; it just looks very inelastic by comparison to other markets. Doesn't that kind of...obviously go without saying? Certain goods and, ahem, services are rather hard-wired into human biology to always be in high demand, wouldn't you say?

    What argument do you really have here, man? All I'm hearing is semantical corrections on minor details such as economic terminology and arbitrary statistics with no relevance whatsoever to the bigger picture. You really, really need to stop thinking in such binary terms if you want to work with such clearly complex topics as economics--it's not even relevant whether or not government paying out 40 cents on the dollar qualifies as a "free market" because we aren't operating in black and white terms here--it isn't "yes definitely total free market" or "no definitely totally not free market", it's a continuum! Don't ask, "Is it free or is it not free?" but rather, "How free is it in comparison to other markets?"

    These are relative concepts which require a sliding scale methodology to conceptualize correctly. You are fundamentally missing the entire context.

    I believe the common Libertarian inability to distinguish between proper and improper contexts for applications of their principles is based largely on this erroneous application of deductive reasoning to inherently inductive situations. You aren't just right or wrong for looking at it this way--you aren't even conceptualizing the problem in enough dimensions to truly grasp the solution.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    lolz, ever heard of alcohol?

    If spawning an entire organized crime underworld the likes of which produced the beginnings of one of the biggest family fortunes in the history of our nation, including propelling a peppy young ESTP named John F. Kennedy straight to the White House isn't "inelastic demand" for a product, then I don't know what is.
    Prohibition is a great example of what happens when the government steps in and things get rationed. Supply (and quality) goes down, and prices goes way, way up.


    In other words, "totally inelastic" doesn't literally mean 100% inelastic; it just looks very inelastic by comparison to other markets. Doesn't that kind of...obviously go without saying? Certain goods and, ahem, services are rather hard-wired into human biology to always be in high demand, wouldn't you say?
    Not when you use words like "totally."
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  9. #109
    Freshman Member simulatedworld's Avatar
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    Ever heard of, you know, not taking everything literally at precise surface value?

    No? Didn't think so. You are really, really missing the point. Why are you reciting random economics 1101 principles? How is the supply/demand infrastructure of social prohibition even remotely relevant to my illustration of health care as a product with extremely inelastic demand? Doesn't this support my point more than refute it?


    And yes I agree about prohibition, even though your point here is entirely off topic. I'm with Libertarians on social issues, but again there should be limits on freedom. We should be free to choose what to do with our lives, until that conflicts with someone else's right to something else, and then we have to make a judgment call. Being a citizen in a republic, your right to keep 100% of your paycheck is NOT held in higher regard than the right of innocent children to eat. Sorry.

    By the way, the prohibition example was just to illustrate how certain goods and services will always demonstrate very inelastic demand because there's a biological need for them--drugs/alcohol is one of them, and unfortunately so is medicine/health care.
    If you could be anything you want, I bet you'd be disappointed--am I right?

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by simulatedworld View Post
    Ever heard of, you know, not taking everything literally at precise surface value?

    No? Didn't think so. You are really, really missing the point. Why are you reciting random economics 1101 principles? How is the supply/demand infrastructure of social prohibition even remotely relevant to my illustration of health care as a product with extremely inelastic demand? Doesn't this support my point more than refute it?
    I am not reciting random anything. I was pointing out the irony of mentioning Prohibition in the context of the federal government regulating (and, most likely, rationing) a good/service. And, no, I don't see how that would support your point. Feel free to explicate.


    And yes I agree about prohibition, even though your point here is entirely off topic. I'm with Libertarians on social issues, but again there should be limits on freedom. We should be free to choose what to do with our lives, until that conflicts with someone else's right to something else, and then we have to make a judgment call. Being a citizen in a republic, your right to keep 100% of your paycheck is NOT held in higher regard than the right of innocent children to eat. Sorry.
    100% would be asking a lot, but better than 60-65% certainly is not. Besides, my making money does not = children starving to death. That is false and outright demagoguery. First of all, the economy is not zero-sum. You seem to be implying that if I were keeping, say, 90% of my paycheck, children would starve. Secondly, the only permanent way to get people out of poverty is for to have real economic growth. Freer markets are much better at that than more regulated ones. How did the poverty rates in minorities fall so much after welfare reform in the mid-1990s? The economy was surging then, mostly due to productivity growth.


    By the way, the prohibition example was just to illustrate how certain goods and services will always demonstrate very inelastic demand because there's a biological need for them--drugs/alcohol is one of them, and unfortunately so is medicine/health care.
    I don't know that there is a biological need for alcohol, but it sure is enjoyable. Competition in that industry has provided us MUCH better booze in the past 75 years. Now, medicine and health care are more inelastic. What you have not demonstrated is exactly HOW a single-payer system would be better than a freer market system (significantly than what we have now) and what we mean by "better." I am not working from the framework of the best system is that in which every single person is covered.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

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