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  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    I also agree with the previous poster that talks about health care for ALL children, elderly and the vunerable members of our society. What kind of a society are we to refuse this sort of basic human right. (And please don't respond if you are Libertarian and don't believe health care is a right, what about the "general welfare of the people"?)

    Nice attitude. I'll respond anyway, since this is an open topic.

    "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."


    Are you seriously going to try to argue that "promote the general welfare" somehow means "financially guarantee health insurance for every citizen?" I am pretty sure that is NOT what that means. In fact, that isn't even an article or a clause to the Constitution. It's the Preamble. The other "General Welfare Clause" refers to the power to tax people for federal revenue.
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  2. #92
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    If you think that sounds fair, then I want you to find someone like that in your neighborhood and start contributing personally toward that person's medical bills.

    Otherwise your so-called "compassion" is just a willingness to spend other people's money.
    ...stumbles back from the callousness of your statement....

    This must be what is referred to as the "compassionate conservative."

    Now it is my turn to get dizzy trying to comprehend that response and get some tea.
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  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    (And please don't respond if you are Libertarian and don't believe health care is a right, what about the "general welfare of the people"?)
    What about Left-Libertarians, Socialist-Libertarians, or Libertarian-Democrats?

  4. #94
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    ^Sure, you can all respond, by all means, I was just referring to a previous communication...not intended for all.

    I appreciate the fact there are different political parties...my philosophy doesn't fit into any mainstream party either. It's just that I've read the platform and researched the libertarian ideas when Ron Paul was running for pres. and decided it wasn't for me. That's all.
    I've looked at life from both sides now
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    I really don't know life at all

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  5. #95
    Striving for balance Little Linguist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    ^Thanks for posting about a health care system from outside of the US. It is helpful to me to hear from all the sides and systems, and as you say, no system is as great as it sounds. My friend from France has also told me about the tiered level of services, part public, part private.

    I would really like to hear about people's concerns, problems when it comes to this critical issue, but I can't learn a damn thing from these town halls when people are shouting down any sort of debate or discussion. I don't have a problem if people are afraid of change, but the only way fear is going to be dispelled is through education and discussion, not strong arming a public gathering, death threats to Congressmen, or assaults (reports of these tactics being used).

    I also agree with the previous poster that talks about health care for ALL children, elderly and the vunerable members of our society. What kind of a society are we to refuse this sort of basic human right. (And please don't respond if you are Libertarian and don't believe health care is a right, what about the "general welfare of the people"?)
    I agree with you that there should be debate. Universal health care sounds really wonderful, and in some ways, it really is. However, some people are mistaken in believing this system will somehow provide a 'fairer' system of health care coverage, and that's simply not the case. Also, the argument regarding well at least everyone would have it is also moot....especially if the laws are not adequately designed. You're going to have a lot of hiccoughs essentially where a lot of people will slip through the cracks, and you're still going to have a system where things are unfair.

    Here's the principle:

    - Private health care patients pay extra money to insurance companies for better benefits, assuming patients have no previous illness.
    - The coverage is indeed very good, but if you are a 40 year old male, non-smoker, excellent health, you'll pay around 450 euros a month. (That's about 600 dollars a month).
    - Initially you have to pay the bills yourself and then you get reimbursed. So there's a lag between the time you pay and receive the money. (Exception: large bills like operations, assuming no previous illness).
    - If you lie about a previous illness, it not only nullifies your coverage but nullifies ALL coverage from the start date, meaning you have to retroactively pay ALL coverage, even that having NOTHING to do with your illness. Payback's a bitch - literally!
    - If you have a previous illness, payments go up, or companies can reject you.
    - Doctors can charge private companies more than public ones and receive more money quicker....soooo if you're in a waiting room and you have an appointment at 8 am, you could wait in the room til 10 because there are 7 private health care patients before you (possibly without an appointment or with a later one). - Okay, granted, sometimes people also just go in for other things, like bandages or blood work, but this does not account for all cases.
    - Because doctors receive so little money from public health care companies, they engage in unnecessary treatment to bill for more and get more money. This is often because they cannot LIVE off of the money they get, not out of greed. I think doctors earn on average 16 euros per patient. This also leads to a rotating-door policy of people not really paying attention on the other end of the scale. So overcharging or under-treatment. Lovely.
    - Since doctors would rather receive more money from the insurance than mistreat their clients, this leads to an overburdening on the system, which eventually gets passed down to the customers in the form of higher premiums. Plus, there are more taxes to support others who do not pay into the system.

    HEH. So check all these things out before you speak too soon.

    And all of you bickering about libertarianism, hush...we're talking about health care.
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  6. #96
    Senior Member statuesquechica's Avatar
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    ^Thanks Little Linguist for that, sounds like similar problems to current system in some respects.

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  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    ^Sure, you can all respond, by all means, I was just referring to a previous communication...not intended for all.

    I appreciate the fact there are different political parties...my philosophy doesn't fit into any mainstream party either. It's just that I've read the platform and researched the libertarian ideas when Ron Paul was running for pres. and decided it wasn't for me. That's all.

    I am not a member of a political party, either. I STRONGLY urge you to read something besides the LP Platform. I cannot reiterate this enough.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  8. #98
    Oberon
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    ...stumbles back from the callousness of your statement....

    This must be what is referred to as the "compassionate conservative."
    I don't understand why people automatically assume that keeping the Federal Government out of things equates to "doing nothing." Nor do I understand why people want to make going to the doctor an experience like going to the DMV office.

    My chief objection to the collectivization of health care is not financial, although it will pick my pocket and significantly reduce my family's quality of life. Rather, my chief objection is that a single-payer system will make health care in this country markedly worse. Adding bureaucracy to something never helps.

    Look, do you want to do something genuinely helpful that isn't a big-government solution? Get together with some capable, like-minded organization and form a 501c-3 nonprofit for the express purpose of funding a charity clinic in your community. Do the fund-raising, hire doctors and PAs, and get it done. If you're successful enough, the 501c-3 can pay you a salary and you can work it full time. You could set your sights higher and open multiple clinics, or even a hospital. The Catholic church has operated on this model for centuries.

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    My chief objection to the collectivization of health care is not financial, although it will pick my pocket and significantly reduce my family's quality of life. Rather, my chief objection is that a single-payer system will make health care in this country markedly worse.
    Do you have facts for all of this, rather than assumptions?

    Quote Originally Posted by oberon View Post
    Adding bureaucracy to something never helps.
    Well, actually, the beginning of bureaucracy made society markedly more efficient and opened up vast opportunities. So you could say adding bureaucracy to society helped it.
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  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by statuesquechica View Post
    (And please don't respond if you are Libertarian and don't believe health care is a right, what about the "general welfare of the people"?)
    Based on that interpretation, anything that would improve my personal welfare is a "right." This positive interpretation of rights, in which it is the state's responsibility to do anything and everything that is considered "good" for me, leads to a place I emphatically do not want to go.

    And neither would you, I think, if you could see it.

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