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  1. #121
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    It seems that this topic is nothing more than a springboard for the same old race relations discussions and police brutality topics that have been going on forever.

    It's not a new topic, just a new manifestation of a worn-out one. Yet people flock to it. People in fact seem to be drawn to topics they can apply these old lenses to more than truly new ones that they have no framework in place for dealing with. No wonder change is so slow... people keep operating from the same sets of opposing perspectives all the time, until those perspectives are so out of touch with reality that they're forced to create new ones.

    Unfortunately, there will always be a justification for this perspective. If there is any observable difference between two people that divides them into different groups, you can bet someone will use that difference in a discriminatory fashion. Maybe not everyone, but a lot of people will. It happens with race, it happens with clothing, it happens with hair style, it happens with gender, it happens with age, it happens with religion, it happens with region/location, and it even happens with personality type sometimes.

    As for this situation... well, I don't know. If the police report was correct, the police were justified. If what Gates said was correct, then he was justified. But who was right? I don't know.

  2. #122
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    If I go to a house because of a call of reasonable suspicion that someone has broken in and then ask the occupier to present ID and he refuses, that right there would be my probable cause.

    The officer did nothing wrong.
    The policeman knew what is what at the time of the arrest.
    This is what makes it wrong.

    He had acted against his better judgement, often.
    Had he not been corrupted, he would have been plain stupid.

    You can shoot a burglar in your home, and get away with it.
    A policeman who enters your home does not need to give you his badge and number.
    If you ask to see them, you are arrested.

    Someone had ensured the professor cannot open his front door.
    He has to force his way in.
    When he does, it is the time to call the cops.

    A preset trap?
    Perhaps the regular method of the corrupted police in Cambridge, Ma?
    I hope not.
    I believe yes.

  3. #123
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    The policeman knew what is what at the time of the arrest.
    This is what makes it wrong.

    He had acted against his better judgement, often.
    Had he not been corrupted, he would have been plain stupid.

    You can shoot a burglar in your home, and get away with it.
    A policeman who enters your home does not need to give you his badge and number.
    If you ask to see them, you are arrested.

    Someone had ensured the professor cannot open his front door.
    He has to force his way in.
    When he does, it is the time to call the cops.

    A preset trap?
    Perhaps the regular method of the corrupted police in Cambridge, Ma?
    I hope not.
    I believe yes.
    Was the story not that Gates was combative and belligerent from the get-go upon Crowley asking to see his ID? Since when is asking for ID not common protocol for basically any stop or run-in with the cops? Crowley warned Gates a couple of times that he was under risk of arrest if he didn't comply and settle down. He failed to do so, along with declining to show his ID. Under those circumstances, there is nothing out of line with taking a person into custody. It doesn't mean he's going to do time at the Pen or even have charges filed against him.

    If someone called in a suspicion of burglary at my residence and I was the one there, not some thug, I would gladly show my ID and appreciate the cop for doing his job and not just taking my word and walking away.

    The problem is too many people expect the worst when it comes to the cops. They expect bad intentions. If there's a possibility of racism, that's what it is - that's the common mindset. Give me a story where a cop yells "porchmonkey!" as he's hammering away on a guy with a baton, not this nonsense.

  4. #124
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    Black officer at scholar's home supports arrest - Yahoo! News

    This is the most important decider in most people's minds, it seems.

    The fact that the other officer was black is, sadly, significant to most people.

    I also find it sad that some people think assuming that a police officer is racist/power hungry/a bully, is anymore justified than assuming that a black man is a criminal.

  5. #125
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    If I go to a house because of a call of reasonable suspicion that someone has broken in and then ask the occupier to present ID and he refuses, that right there would be my probable cause.

    The officer did nothing wrong.
    No it's not. There are legal tests for that sort of thing. Being refused entry does not pass those tests.

    The problem is too many people expect the worst when it comes to the cops. They expect bad intentions. If there's a possibility of racism, that's what it is - that's the common mindset. Give me a story where a cop yells "porchmonkey!" as he's hammering away on a guy with a baton, not this nonsense.
    You're supposed to expect the worst from the police. That's where the whole concept of presumed innocence on the part of the defendant comes from. Our entire criminal law system is based around the idea that the cops most likely screwed up, and that they have to prove really well (beyond a reasonable doubt) that they did their job correctly and arrested the right guy.

    Once again, that's a good thing, because someday you might accidentally be on the wrong side of it.

  6. #126
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    No it's not. There are legal tests for that sort of thing. Being refused entry does not pass those tests.
    Please enlighten me on what warrants procession through probable cause. No offense, but I don't think you are fully educated on the Ins and Outs of law and what warrants what. I'm not saying I am, but go ahead and check this out:
    [taken from another website, good read - ]Pajamas Media
    The first question to be asked about Sgt. Crowley’s initial response is, was it lawful and reasonable? Clearly it was both. A cornerstone U.S. Supreme Court decision, Terry v. Ohio, held that an officer may stop and detain a person he reasonably believes to be involved in criminal activity. Here, Sgt. Crowley answered a citizen’s report of a possible burglary. Such reports are granted a presumption of reliability under the law, so Sgt. Crowley was on solid ground in approaching the home and, upon seeing a man inside who matched the description provided by the witness, asking him for his identification. A police officer responding to such a report must, for his own safety, assume the report to be accurate until he can satisfy himself that it isn’t. The cop who blithely handles every call assuming it to be a false alarm will likely not survive to handle many of them. In fact, many police officers faced with the identical facts would likely have ordered Henry Gates out of the home at gunpoint.

    Sgt. Crowley did not go so far as that (imagine the furor if he had), but he exercised a measure of caution by following Gates into the home as Gates retrieved his identification. Gates insists Crowley needed a warrant to enter the home but he is mistaken, as even the most liberal judge would find that Crowley was faced with sufficiently exigent circumstances, viz. a possible burglar who may have attempted to arm himself or flee, to justify a warrantless entry.
    You're supposed to expect the worst from the police. That's where the whole concept of presumed innocence on the part of the defendant comes from. Our entire criminal law system is based around the idea that the cops most likely screwed up, and that they have to prove really well (beyond a reasonable doubt) that they did their job correctly and arrested the right guy.

    Once again, that's a good thing, because someday you might accidentally be on the wrong side of it.
    I completely disagree and you're looking at it from the wrong angle. Why would the government employ police officers just to prove that they're jackasses? "Prove beyond a reasonable doubt" is simply implemented to present a fair case because everyone is only human and you can't show up to a scene and expect all the puzzle pieces to fall into place. After the fact, in court - evidence is brought up, testimonies are told, witnesses are present, etc. It's the process of sorting everything out in order to execute a fair judgment. It's supposed to be an unbiased system which allows for both sides to give their account.

  7. #127
    It's always something... PuddleRiver's Avatar
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    It doesn't negate the fact in my mind that it was perfectly proper to ask the officer to show his I.D. I would've. I'm not just taking up for the Professor, either. Both were in the wrong in my mind. The officer perhaps being on a bit of a power trip...and the Professor for being a bit of an attention whore. Who knows? Just the vibe I get. *shrug*

    We don't really know what happened that day, which really renders the discussion moot until we do know the facts, if we ever will, which I doubt.
    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay one invincible summer."
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  8. #128
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I don't see what the big deal is. Everyone seems to have pretty strong feelings about it, even though no one was actually there except Gates and Crowley. I've personally never seen a cop deal well with anyone who did any less than exactly what they wanted, but that's the nature of the job.
    Agreed.

    My ex was a cop and their job is not easy. I know that most people would agree with that statement but it's a hard job in ways I never thought of. Everyone should do a ride along. Your perspective changes - greatly! And you realize just how many idiots and assholes these people deal with daily.

    For example, during one ride along he pulled over/ticketed probably 15 people. 2 of them were black. One of them told my ex that "You only pulled me over because I was black." My ex ignored this. However, the man kept repeating it. Finally my ex responded: "Look at your tint. Do you think I can see through your vehicle?" The guy promptly shut up.

    Once my ex got back in the police car he said "I should've ticketed him for having illegal tint" then started laughing. I thought he should've! I was offended because I know how honest he is at his job and how seriously he takes his responsibility. He was like, "Whatever. We hear that everyday." I don't know but I couldn't take being accused of racism and being slandered everyday. Much respect to them.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  9. #129
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    ^+1

    MDP, do you know your ex's mbti type?

  10. #130
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllAboutSoul View Post
    It doesn't negate the fact in my mind that it was perfectly proper to ask the officer to show his I.D. I would've. I'm not just taking up for the Professor, either. Both were in the wrong in my mind. The officer perhaps being on a bit of a power trip...and the Professor for being a bit of an attention whore. Who knows? Just the vibe I get. *shrug*

    We don't really know what happened that day, which really renders the discussion moot until we do know the facts, if we ever will, which I doubt.
    A power trip? Police officers are in a position of power. That's just the nature of the job, however that doesn't mean their intentions are set on entertaining that power... As long as the cop does his job lawfully, it's pointless to even assume he's on a "power trip", because every situation a cop handles, it calls for compliance in some form. Is that not power?

    At what stage did Sgt Crowley conduct himself in the wrong manner? I'm curious as to what you feel his error was. Reading over the article as well as other people's views and opinions, I don't see any misstep on his part and it appears he carried out his duty in correct fashion.

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