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  1. #111
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Synthetic Darkness View Post
    The fact that they can get away with so much in our school, bad mouthing teachers, skipping school, smoking, doing drugs they don't try to hide these things the teachers really don't do anything, they bring knives to school and get warnings, they can get away with some of the most sexist, homophobic remarks and not even get a reprimand. And you know what they use as an excuse for their behavior...I grew up in a bad neighborhood and everyone hates me because I'm black...now seriously...I grew up in the same neighborhood as these people I've had the same opportunites I'm the same race, I think it's even worse for my family because we're immigrants so to see them squander the advantages they have and then blame it on their race is completely ridiculous that's why I don't have a shred of sympathy for any of them.
    Is it really preferential treatment that they are allowed to continue with behavior that will lead to failure in the future? Seems to me that it's the ones who are taught behaviors that will lead to productive lives that are actually given the preferential treatment, while the ones who are allowed to use their background as a crutch are the ones who are ignored and marginalized.

    As much as I can't stand the guy, George W. Bush did have a line in a speech that was stunningly accurate - "the soft bigotry of low expectations". It's very similar to what President Obama was talking about when he emphasized "no excuses" at the NAACP speech last week.

    Get away with what you want to at school - it still doesn't mean you're going to get a decent job with those attitudes. Of course, it would help if the rest of society would help by getting these schools some resources - schools are more de facto segregated now than they were 35 years ago

  2. #112
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Of course, it would help if the rest of society would help by getting these schools some resources - schools are more de facto segregated now than they were 35 years ago
    If resources were the problem, then Washington D.C. would have the best schools in the country. Entrenched institutional and cultural deficiencies are the problem, and increased spending seems to increase the problems caused by institutional deficiencies.

  3. #113
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    If resources were the problem, then Washington D.C. would have the best schools in the country. Entrenched institutional and cultural deficiencies are the problem, and increased spending seems to increase the problems caused by institutional deficiencies.
    Resources can help only so much - that's true. The largest predictor of educational success still is, and will remain parental involvement, and socioeconomic issues will preclude full parity. Charter schools have done an effective job of identifying the talented among lower-class students and giving them great opportunities, however, that still leaves a large number of students that society has to deal with. Personally, I'd rather spend the money when they're in school than have to continually spend the money while they're in prison.

    Private schools and vouchers aren't the answer either - they will segregate and stratify (via entrance exams, accessibility difficulties and other methods) even more quickly than post-integration public schools did. Private schools only maintain themselves through donations from alumni, anyway, and most people do not have this capability. A voucher system would work its way back into being a public school system out of sheer necessity. The only thing it would do is break the teachers' unions in the process, and in my opinion, that's what it's designed to do in the first place.

  4. #114
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Stupid story. The professor was stupid. Stupid of Obama to even speak his opinion on the matter. It makes him look biased and unprofessional. Kind of disturbing that Obama is so quick to side against the law enforcement of the country he is in control of. There was no sign of blatant racism in this situation. It's all perception and a dash of paranoia. Could the cop have been racist, I suppose so, but did he do anything out of order? I don't see it.

    I hate hearing about when someone is non-compliant with an officer, when they're being ordered to do something under lawful procedure and then try to point the finger or play the race card. Show your ID, put your hands up, quit yelling, stop slapping your wife, whatever. In the courtroom is where you can present your list of the perceived transgressions made against you.

  5. #115
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beat View Post
    I hate hearing about when someone is non-compliant with an officer, when they're being ordered to do something under lawful procedure and then try to point the finger or play the race card. Show your ID, put your hands up, quit yelling, stop slapping your wife, whatever. In the courtroom is where you can present your list of the perceived transgressions made against you.
    We have rights, you know. If a cop is telling me to do something (like show ID on my own property) and I know that it's a blatant violation of my rights (Fourth Amendment), I'm not going to be an asshole, but I am going to be very non-compliant and inform the officer that he is not welcome on my property at this time, and that I hope he has a pleasant day.

  6. #116
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    We have rights, you know. If a cop is telling me to do something (like show ID on my own property) and I know that it's a blatant violation of my rights (Fourth Amendment), I'm not going to be an asshole, but I am going to be very non-compliant and inform the officer that he is not welcome on my property at this time, and that I hope he has a pleasant day.
    The above situation implies the officer knows that you indeed live on said property. If the officer is asking for ID in order for him to be able to even comply with the 4th amendment, and you are non-compliant, it's in his authority to ascertain that kind of information.

    I'm sure criminals have said "well of course I live here officer" before. If a cop was called to my house because of a potential break-in, he better do everything to determine who exactly lives there.



  7. #117
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    The above situation implies the officer knows that you indeed live on said property. If the officer is asking for ID in order for him to be able to even comply with the 4th amendment, and you are non-compliant, it's in his authority to ascertain that kind of information.

    I'm sure criminals have said "well of course I live here officer" before. If a cop was called to my house because of a potential break-in, he better do everything to determine who exactly lives there.
    Unless there's probable cause (not reasonable suspicion) to believe that illegal behavior is currently going on, the officer does not have any authority to be on your property whatsoever without your permission. The assumption is good faith on the part of the civilian.

    If someone says that they own a house, and an officer has no reason to believe that this isn't true based on the current circumstances, then the person is under no obligation to continue their contact with the police officer. If there is anything to suggest illegal activity in plain sight, such as moved furniture, broken windows, a gash on the person's hand, among other things, then you've moved into probable cause and the officer can legally begin a search. Before then, though, the officer can ask to enter or for ID, but if refused, must leave. A phone call is only reasonable suspicion.

  8. #118
    DoubleplusUngoodNonperson
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    He had the phone call reports of the break in. That's probable cause if i'm not mistaken...


    so really, i say it's the NEIGHBOR who's the real cocksucker here. didn't the story say he knew precisely that the Professor lived there?

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by nozflubber View Post
    He had the phone call reports of the break in. That's probable cause if i'm not mistaken...


    so really, i say it's the NEIGHBOR who's the real cocksucker here. didn't the story say he knew precisely that the Professor lived there?
    A phone call report only satisfies reasonable suspicion, which means they are allowed to approach the house to investigate whether illegal activity is occuring. The property owner is then in his rights to tell them to leave without presenting ID if there is no evidence to suggest probable cause. The standards for approaching a person in their place of residence are much stronger than those of a person on the street, or in their car.

    They had no probable cause to believe that Gates was doing anything illegal. Gates was perfectly reasonable in assuming that they persisted further due to his race. This is why the police should have left as soon as he told them to.

  10. #120
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    If I go to a house because of a call of reasonable suspicion that someone has broken in and then ask the occupier to present ID and he refuses, that right there would be my probable cause.

    The officer did nothing wrong.

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